The Confessing Seventh-day Adventist

Hi WillieH

Before continuing the conversation... you might be interested to know that I have never identified as an SDA on this board. Eugene (I believe) took the liberty of writing the words Seventh-day Adventist under my name -- a presumption I raised with him. He decided, in his wisdom, to label me with something I didn't ask for.

Let me state my position - the label SDA does NOT define my theology. Along with many others who are members of the denomination, there are some of the 28 Fundamentals I disagree with in toto, partly, or agree with. Like you, I do my own thinking and will not be conformed to someone else's belief system(s) or labels. I appeal to you not to assume that, because I am a member of the denomination, you then know what I believe about specific issues. I am sure you would agree that, when searching for truth, the labels are not important. What is important is what God's Word says -- I think we agree on that.

Let me also be clear about where my faith lies -- in Christ and Christ alone. In matters of belief and doctrine I accept the Bible, and the Bible only as the ultimate authority for faith and practice.

It is YOU SPOZY that is so interested in WRATH and HELL

I am only interested in these topics to the degree that Scripture is interested in them. The actual issue of universalism is about whether or not there will be any that are lost. Obviously, if we are discussing universalism, then we, by definition, have to be discussing these topics. I am much more interested, overall, in the grace and mercy of God. But grace and mercy would not be necessary without God's wrath, surely?

even if I were to "give" you HIS references using these words... He only spoke "HELL" (hades/gehenna/tartaros) in 15 verses in the New Testament

I stand corrected. In the NASB, there are only 11 references where Jesus used the word translated "hell" in the gospels. Jesus uses the word translated "heaven" much more.

1 Tim 4:9-11 / 1 Tim 2:4-6 / Rom 5:18 / Rom 5:19 / Luke 19:10 / John 3:17 / John 1:29 / Phil 2:10-11 / 1 Cor 3:12-15 / Rom 5:20 / 1 Cor 15:22 / Col 1:20 / 1 John 4:14

(In what follows, I will quote from the New American Standard Bible (NASB) for the sake of literality despite its gender problems.)

'It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance.For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. Prescribe and teach these things.' (1 Ti 4:9-11, NASB)

Jesus is the Saviour of all people. He most certainly is their Saviour. But that does not logically entail that they can't refuse to be saved. Imagine I am a surf life saver. Someone is drowning. I row a boat out to them, and offer to pull them into the boat. Imagine they refuse to come into the boat. The fact they refuse doesn't negate that I am their rescuer. I am, but they may refuse. This is the same with Christ. Christ is the Saviour of all -- there is no other name by which humanity can be saved. But that does not logically necessitate that someone cannot refuse.

And what does it mean to say that he is the Saviour, especially of those who believe? There is obviously a difference between those who believe and those who do not. What difference would be meaningful other than that those who believe have not rejected the salvation Christ has made available for them?

'who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time.' (1 Ti 2:4-6, NASB)

These verses speak of the Saviour who desires that all are saved. For that purpose, Jesus gave himself as a ransom for everyone. God is a god of love, so obviously desires that everyone be saved and has done everything necessary for that salvation to be a reality. But desiring something is not the same as forcing the outcome. There is no reason to read this text as stating that, ultimately, every single person will be saved. It is quite consistent with other passages of Scripture that teach some will be lost.

' So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.' (Ro 5:18, NASB)

Once again, there is no reason to read this verse as saying that every single individual will ultimately be saved. Through Christ's one act, every human being is justified (declared righteous). But it is still possible for someone to refuse the benefits of this declaration. Justification is a necessary condition for salvation, but if a person refuses to live according to that declaration, God will not overpower that person.

' For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.' (Ro 5:19, NASB)

Same comment as above. Paul is clearly discussing imputed sin and imputed righteousness (otherwise it wouldn't be parallel). A person can still reject this imputation if they so wish.

'“For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”' (Lk 19:10, NASB)

Of course Jesus came to seek and save the lost! This was a discussion with Zaccheus and Jesus was affirming that it was for people like Zaccheus that he came to earth. Once again, their is no logical reason to understand this statement as saying that every single person would ultimately be saved.

' “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.' (Jn 3:17, NASB)

This is true, Jesus was not sent to judge but to save. But that doesn't mean there will be no judgment at all. The very next verse (18) speaks of a judgment brought about by the choice of individuals to reject Christ!

'The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him, and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!' (Jn 1:29, NASB)

Yes! Jesus did take away the sin of the world. But that still does not make a person incapable of refusing to living according to that reality. The verse does not preclude someone from rejecting the salvation made available.

' that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,' (Php 2:10, NASB)

Every knee will bow at the name of Jesus, confessing that Jesus Christ is the Lord -- but notice the text does not say that every person will confess Christ as Saviour. This is a bowing of submission when confronted with the ultimate reality of who Jesus is.

' Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.' (1 Co 3:12-15, NASB)

Paul is speaking to the church and saying that the church can only be built on the foundation of Christ. Paul is speaking to believers in this passage. Even if a believer's works are found to be wanting, that person will still be saved. Paul is not discussing the fate of unbelievers.

' And the Law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,' (Ro 5:20, NASB)

Yes... so? The greater the transgression, the greater the grace. This says nothing about the (im)possibility of anyone being lost.

' For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.' (1 Co 15:22, NASB)

Yes, in Christ, every person is made alive. This doesn't logically necessitate that a person can't choose to die the second death!

' and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.' (Col 1:20, NASB)

Yes, through Christ, all has been reconciled to God. But read the next few verses:

' and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.' (Col 1:20-23, NASB)

Notice that Paul recognises the possibility that some may choose to move away from the faith and the gospel. So this passage most definitely does not teach that there is no possibility of anyone being lost.

' And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.' (1 Jn 4:14, NASB)

Yes, but notice the conditions in the next couple of verses:

' And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.' (1 Jn 4:14-15, NASB)

John is affirming that Jesus is, indeed, the Saviour of the world. But it is only those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God in whom God dwells.

In the case of every verse you have cited, WillieH, not one of them addresses, or states, the impossibility of any person being lost. They affirm the good news that Christ is the Saviour of all the world. Every person's sins have been forgiven; every person has been declared righteous and alive in Christ. But not one verse states that a person cannot reject Jesus Christ. To claim that they do is to read that notion into the text or to ignore the context.

would you like more? If so, I can provide many others upon request... Just let me know if you need MORE PROOF...

None of the texts you have offered have proved the impossibility of a person being lost (some just the opposite). So I guess you will need to give me more.

I admit, that I do not have the best communication skills, and that from time to time, I do not have a soft enough demeanor... for that I apologize... for the support of the Universal Salvation of Mankind by its Creator... I apologize NOT...

Apology accepted... and if I have miscommunicated, I also ask forgiveness.

WillieH: Haven't seen it yet (you disagreeing with Tal).. you 2 are like 2 peas in a pod...

I'm sure the day will come :-)

But I am confident of the trail I walk, because I have already traversed the one you are presently on, as an SDA...

You have no idea of the trail I have travelled or am on presently. So leave it aside; it has nothing to do with the topic.

I have asked before.. and have recieved no answer.. what is NLT?

I must have missed the question - sorry - it stands for New Living Translation.

It has been estimated that 150,000,000 humans have walked the earth... maybe 1 BILLION have even heard the message of Christ... let alone "decided" for Salvation... this is NOT INNUMERABLE... 150 BILLION is closer to INNUMERABLE...

This indicates a misunderstanding of my view. I have never said that a person can only be saved by hearing the message of Christ. I have only said that a person can be lost by rejecting whatever revelation of God they have received, whether it be direct, through nature, etc. I believe all are saved unless they reject; NOT all will be lost unless they accept.

1) How is universalism consistent with humans being created in God's image?

WillieH: What a vague question... but I will answer as it strikes me> GOD created ALL human beings... ALL human beings have the BREATH of LIFE that is FROM GOD... He is therefore the PARENT of each human being... and the creation process (fyi) is not yet OVER.. and INTENDED for ALL that are LOST... how many are LOST SPozy?

Let me be clearer. God is able to choose. He made humans in his image. An important part of that image is the ability to choose. To reject the idea that a person may reject God if they so choose must mean that God overrides choice. Therefore, God is denying an aspect of the image of himself in humanity.

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2) If you believe in universalism, how can you justify God being a cosmic rapist?


WillieH: What kind of dopey question is this? Cosmic rapist? such words of disrespect you attach to your creator... be careful...

You have missed my point. I am not saying that God is a cosmic rapist. If universalism is true, then universalists make God to be a cosmic rapist. That is, God forces people against their will to be saved. Forcing someone against their will is, by definition, rape. I'm suggesting that universalists be careful. I want to know how you can avoid this attribution to God.

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3) How is God consistent with his holiness and justice if God forces a wicked person to be saved, against their will?


WillieH: at last a question that makes some sense... You were a wicked person were you not? And did GOD "force" you to be saved? He will not EVER "force" anyone... everyone, eventually will SEE HIM and KNOW HIM and when they do, like you and I, they will bow to His MAJESTY, be humbled by His LOVE, be JUSTIFIED by HIS SACRIFICE, which ALONE is HOLY... and JUST... (Rom 11:29-32)

I don't think you have understood the nuances of my view. I believe, as I said before, that when Christ died, everyone was declared justified, forgiven, and that moment, saved. What I am saying is that God does not prevent people from rejecting that salvation. You are begging the question in your reply. You say that people will bow to God like you and I. That's just the point -- I am choosing not to reject God -- as you are choosing not to reject God (unless you think God is forcing you not to choose). As I have stated above, ultimately, everyone will bow and confess God as Lord -- but not necessarily as Saviour.

(29) "for the gifts and calling of GOD are without repentence.."

A better translation:

' for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.' (Ro 11:29, NASB)

All this is saying is that God won't go back on his gifts and promises. It says nothing about someone not being able to refuse them.

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4) How are your interpretations of the passages of Scripture you quote consistent with the contexts in which they appear?


WillieH: They are EXTREMELY consistent.. As opposed to annihilation or ET and their quotes...

Sorry, have to disagree with you as my responses to your cited texts above show. I believe, to accept universalism, you have to read presuppositions into the text or rip them out of context, or ignore the vast witness of Scripture that teaches that some may be lost. (NB: I say may because I don't believe that God has determined that some will definitely be lost. It is theoretically possible that everyone may choose not to reject God. But we know this not to be the case because, historically, we know of many who have explicitly, persistently rejected God.

And that brings up another question: what about those who have already died rejecting God? What do you have to say about them?

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5) How to you answer the explicit teaching of Scripture that some will be lost because they persist in rejecting God?


WillieH: Quote me verse, I will volunteer my viewpoint...

I think I've done that already. The post following the one you responded to, addressed to anyone who wished to respond.

WillieH: Now you resort to sarcasm... if you think wishful thinking to be: the ALL encompassing ALL mighty ALL loving ALL merciful ALL justifying GOD able to SAVE ALL... then it is the greatest WISH you can have for GOD is NOT WILLING that ANY should PERISH.... and in this WISH, He gets HIS WISH... Pretty wishful eh?

This makes no sense to me. I was not being sarcastic. I was suggesting that it is easy to want to believe that noone will be lost. However, the Bible does not teach it in my view. I do wish that no one will perish. I hope that every single person will be saved. But my wishing it so doesn't make it so. Scripture teaches that individuals have the capacity to refuse salvation. To refuse to acknowledge that means to allow our wishes to overcome truth.

WillieH: Let's face it Spoz... YOU are the one with NO ANSWERS.. you are the one that needs to be HONEST enough to say so...

I give scripture after scripture, and do you believe the scriptures? Of course you don't ...because you have your '"FREE WILL" now don't you?

I do have answers and have given them above. For every single passage of Scripture you have cited, the verses do not say what you claim they do and can be consistently understood with the rest of Scripture's teaching on salvation. I do believe the Scriptures -- it is disingenuous for you to say I don't -- once again, you make irrelevant points.

I pray for you... do you do same for me? Just reread the Pharisee and Publican parable... I fall to my face and ask GOD's forgiveness for I am a SINNER... and thank Him, and GLORIFY HIM, for saving ALL...

So do I.

but you... what do you do Spoze? Do you thank Him for your own self, and too bad for those that don't make it? That Mr Spoze, is the difference between you and me... Sad...

No, I do not. You are wandering off again into irrelevant material. I grieve over those who refuse God's offer of salvation. When I have the opportunity, I tell them the good news that God has reconciled them to himself and that they are saved. I urge them to live a life consistent with that truth. Maybe it helps you feel better to suggest such a difference between you and me. But it is completely inaccurate and unnecessary.

Do you justify yourself with your religion, with your "free will", thanking God for yourself, and your supposed "timely choice for Christ", or do you join me ....on face?

I don't think I have said anything which would suggest I justify myself with my religion or with my free will. These are things you are constructing in some attempt to make me look worse than you and therefore place doubt on my views. Instead of doing that, why not stick to the topic itself and let God worry about my heart? My salvation came through Christ who gave himself for me long before I was born. I entered the world justified, forgiven, saved. So there was no 'timely choice' on my part -- only God's timely choice. So I am on my face with you...

In Christ...

A few points.

1. I want to apologize at this point for the sarcasm etc. I readily admit I WAS sarcastic in my last two posts. As I stated at the outset I was upset by your calling us pharisees when I was trying to look at the scriptures you wanted us to examine . Honestly, I was telling you my true view of the scriptures in question. I should not have allowed myself to become sarcastic however, and for that, I have no excuse.

We need to avoid such in the future. However, valid disagreement is fine. And I don't think that it should be avoided. To do so is to skirt the issues. For my part I resolve to try to do that with respect from now on. I do in fact view you as a friend in Christ. But at the same time I strongly believe that your views may lead people astray. You believe the same about me. But we can still have respectful dialogue.

As to name calling, whether you think me a new Christian or not, I don't understand why this is a form of attack for you. Older Christians nurture new ones, not belittle them. And actually I have been a Christian for about 14 years now. Undoubtedly you have been a Christian longer. But first of all that does not indicate maturity as the author of Hebrews references in chapter 6 of his letter that some had been Christians for so long that by now they ought to be teachers, but instead they were mere infants. Second of all, even if I am less mature in the faith, doesn't that mean you should be more patient with me? More willing to show from the scriptures what I need to know? I don't understand how this has become to you a club. If I am wrong, show me where I am wrong. It has nothing to do with the number of years you have been in the faith.

As to my view of God you can't make a claim such as "everyone is saved" and then expect us not to talk about things that we see in scripture that seem to contradict that. I regularly preach on the grace of God. But I do certainly view it differently than you do. I do not dwell on the punishment most times. But I feel to eliminate it is to be unfaithful to Jesus' own message. I quoted numerous passages in the post you skipped of the statement that sinners would be punished. Punishment often is redemptive. But it is the context that determines whether it is or not. The death penalty, which God instituted, is punishment, and NOT redemptive. It is removing a corrupting influence from the rest of God's family. You stated that the flood is a statement about temporal judgement. I agree. However, it is used by the NT writers as an example of God's judgement. It is used as a case study that God does not extend mercy forever. In the very passage I was referencing, 2 Peter 3, which is a key one for both of our arguments, he was using

a. the flood
b. sodom
c. evil angels
as an example of God's judgement. It was a clear statement to the scoffers that God does NOT prolong judgement forever.

I have more to say on this , but I will wait until I respond to your whole recent statement.

2. You keep saying I don't quote scripture. There is a simple reason for this. The entirety of what you responded to was merely my addition by your request to what I said before. I put 10 pages of biblical response, then answered the questions I had not fully addressed for another 6 pages. You only responded to the 6 pages.

I mentioned at least twice, at the beginning and end for you to respond to the whole thing. You didn't. All the scriptures you wondered about were cited in the first post. Therefore I made mention of them without citing because I knew that we all had them in mind form earlier conversation.

If you need me to repost I will. But I want you to address that post if you are going to try to dismiss me as unbiblical. You ducked it once saying you wouldn't answer until I answered your questions. I answered them and then you never answered my original post anyway. Once you answer that post I will answer both your current post to me in more detail, and your response to me from the other.

3. Moreover, you have quoted those 12 or so texts before and I answered each one. You didn't even look at them. Now, forgive me for reading your conversation with Spozzi, but you said that you would would post the other 90 again. When I suggested you do that before you said the following:

No, I wont give you 90 scriptures to reply to you (how small of you to say such words) because it is futility, as you do not believe what they say anyhow... much as the "religious" pharisees did NOT believe...

Now at that point I had not been sarcastic to you in the least. I had done EXACTLY what you asked me to do in the first post, explain those texts. I did so. And you said in the first post you made you would post 90 more. I was just wanting to see them. But you then treated me like a pharisee without even looking at my explanation which was using biblical texts. And I was serious. I want to see the 90. So far I have found nothing to recommend your new truth. But if you have more texts, show them. The point is that you are presenting something which you know is new. You want people to consider it. But then you seem to get upset at the first sign they are not accepting it. That is no way to convince people. And it bothered me.

I also quoted additional texts. In fact, I have used a total of 61 cited scripture references in my 6 responses to you. The one I did not cite is that regarding the demons. I apologize for that. It is listed in several places:

Mark 3:11 11 Whenever the evil spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, "You are the Son of God." 12 But he gave them strict orders not to tell who he was


LK 4:40 When the sun was setting, the people brought to Jesus all who had various kinds of sickness, and laying his hands on each one, he healed them. 41 Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.


MT 8:28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

MK 5:6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7 He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!" 8 For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!"


LK 8:26 They sailed to the region of the Gerasenes, which is across the lake from Galilee. 27 When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!" 29 For Jesus had commanded the evil spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places.

LK 8:30 Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"
"Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him. 31 And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.

These texts all speak of demon's acknowledging that Jesus is the Son of God. Do you think those are confessions of salvation? Love? Yet they gave glory to God. The scriptures often refer to the phrase "give glory to God" as a technical term for telling the truth. So in your text that you often quote about all confessing to the glory of God, it is likely talking about an admission of truth that does Glorify God, but does not bring any salvation as such. As with the demons, they are compelled to tell it ,but it is not saving in their case. Here we have examples above where the demons made confessions that
a . Jesus was the Son of God
b. He had power over them

but no where is there a hint that this brought salvation.

The last text makes reference to the Abyss. Which by the way you properly note is NOT the same as hell. I do in fact agree with you that hell is an foreign concept to the Bible. Gehenna is more properly the fire in 2 Peter 3 that we both referred to as destroying the old heavens and earth.

Now I don't take anything demons say as being truth. But there is another mention of demons in a place of torment from a more reliable source.

2PE 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.

Now here we see again the most crucial text in 2 Peter. And he makes reference to several examples of His dealing both with men and with demons. It also says that He put he demons in gloomy dungeons waiting for the judgement. That doesn't sound like the way God would treat people after they made a saving confession. Now in the story Jesus does NOT send them to the abyss. He sends them to the pigs. But neither did he say they were forgiven at all, or extend salvation, or remove their fear of the judgement. Their confession was in no way acknowledged as leading to salvation.


It should also be noted that this is of course the backdrop for the statement about God not wanting anyone to perish.

2PE 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2PE 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2PE 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

Peter recounts the details of the scoffers who forgot about the flood. He then says that the present earth and heavens are reserved for fire–which you actually had no argument with. But it also says that fire will bring about the destruction of ungodly men–not just their works.
Then he gives the message of mercy. That God's delay has been for their benefit. Even though mockers may ridicule them for it, it means that more will be saved because God is patient not wanting any to perish.

Now in all seriousness, why would God have to be patient in bringing the destruction of the world if after that they still have a chance to repent? It doesn't seem to indicate that they do. It seems to indicate that they are destroyed with the heavens and earth. That He is patient because this IS their chance for repentance now. To emphasize this he goes on to say, BUT despite God's mercy the day of the Lord will come like a thief. And all these things will happen.

He even makes a further after this:

2PE 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

first he exhorts them to live a holy life. I think all of us agree that is good, regardless of whether all men are saved or not. But then he says we should SPEED God's coming.

Now I understand that you believe in God's sovereignty. If God has determined a time, which it says He has in other places, why does Peter say to speed God's coming? In fact, what determines when He will come? The only text that I find is in Matthew.

MT 24:9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Now first it should be noted that Jesus says that because of the increase of wickedness the love of many will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Isn't Jesus saying that

a. some will NOT endure to the end. Their love will grow cold.
b. the ones who endure will be saved.

Now as I read that, it seems to me to be saying not everyone will be saved. I am not distorting it in my own mind. That is really how I see it. How am I a pharisee for saying that?

But second of all note that it says when the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony then the end will come.

So then...if we take Peter's statement, he seems to be saying
a. God is patiently waiting for people to come to repentance. This is the reason He hasn't come yet
b. God will come when all have heard.

So wouldn't spreading the message cause Him to come more quickly? This is the only meaning I can get out of Peter's statement.

By the way, I agree that not all have heard the gospel message of Jesus. In fact, I spelled out my views in the post that you have yet to respond to. So I will let you reference my points there.

4. All three of us here acknowledge that

a. we are sinful
b. only God's grace saves us

where we differ is on our understanding of the words of scripture itself. We are not saying that some are lost because we want to be better than others. We are saying it because it seems to plainly say it to us. I cannot at all reconcile all of the texts with your view. It is not stubbornness. I simply haven't been convinced. If you wish to convince, then hear out our objections, answer them one by one. I often have objections when presenting the gospel. But they are not ever convinced if I do not patiently go over the material, all that they need to answer the question.

Moreover I do not think that God will punish any of us for an honest interpretation of His scripture that we are convinced of. Now it may be that if we are truly intentionally deluding ourselves, that He might. But He would know that, and we certainly don't know it about each other. I assume that your views are sincere. I have not in fact questioned your salvation. I have said that if you continue to deny the judgement of God then you do so at your own peril. Not necessarily because you will not be saved, but as you say, because God will not be pleased if others are lost by your influence. I have questioned your influence on others who might simply feel that they are at liberty to spurn God due to your teaching. In fact, let us review the text you have quoted several times about rewards.

1CO 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

1CO 3:16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

Paul is replying to their fighting over who they should follow, Apollos, Paul, Peter (Cephas) etc. Paul has said only Christ should be followed rather than fighting over the servants of God. He then uses this example that God is the one who is to be worshiped, we are merely workmen. Some are better workmen than others.

Now some specific notes.
A. The foundation of the building is Jesus' Christ. Each one builds on that foundation. Some build well, with precious materials. Others will less precious. Some apparently don't do well at all.

B. Our works are indeed brought to light at the end.

C. However, the statement about each man's work is limited to its earlier context. It only refers to those who build on that foundation. Can we really say that the unbeliever in this life builds anything on the foundation of Christ? He is speaking about leaders of the church that the Corinthians are fighitng over. Secondarily he is speaking of all Christians He is not speaking about every person in the world. Therefore he says "if any man."

D. The one who builds unwisely is still saved. But what he built is burned up.

The results of their ministry were not what they should have been because they did not build the right way. This is not to me a statement of all men's rewards. It seems instead to be

A. A call to worship God, not follow man
B. A warning that man should not take glory to himself, but should be careful that he builds properly on the one foundation.

In light of the second I sincerely worry that your teaching could lead people astray. I likewise understand you feel the same about me.

So let us begin to respectfully answer each one scripturally. In fact, as a suggestion, what we might do is do this in a more profitable fashion. Rather than making these long posts, let's focus on one text at a time. You could suggest one to look at. Then we could. Each time we let the discussion run for a bit till we all have at least made our points clear. These long posts are not all bad, as they have fleshed out our views to some degree. But they can lack the specific nature of a more focused attempt.

I would like you to at least read my previous post that you skipped. But if we agree to this new method, a response would not be needed. We can address each text in turn.

However we do it, let us be respectful. I apologize for not doing this before.

WillieH: Hi Spoz..

I skimmed thru your response, and agree that a softer and more focused conversation would profit us both...

Thanks for your humility... I always see humility as MAJESTY... For it was the HALLMARK of our Savior... and the only way to truly follow Him is with Humility....

I will answer the post later (hopefully tonite)... BTW I am going on vacation for a few weeks, (Sunday) and will review when I get back... not ignoring, just vacating...

In JESUS ...WillieH ...servant...

WillieH: Hi Tall...

I have 3 scriptures I would like your comment on...

Considering ORIGINAL WORD MEANINGS... there is a Word that is very pivitol in considering what I preach concerning the final destiny of all...

And that word is of course.... ALL..

The Word for ALL in the original Greek (Strong's Ex Concordance #3956) is "PAS"... This word is ALL inclusive... it, when it is used, ...does NOT leave out anything or anyone in the CONTEXT that it is used...

In the NEW TESTAMENT... this word is used OVER and OVER repeatedly by NT authors, and when read... those reading automatically regard its meaning as ALL inclusive... for example... my first scripture is:

2 Tim 3:16... "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION in RIGHTEOUSNESS..."

Do you agree that the use of this word (ALL/PAS) here, means that ALL scripture is given by GOD? That ALL scripture is profitable for Doctrine, reproof, correction, and for instruction in righteousness?

If you do, then let us proceed to the next verse (among many others) in which it is used...

John 12:32... "and I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me"

Now, how many is this "ALL" speaking of?

If you disagree that it is speaking of truly, ALL... let's proceed to my last verse...

John 1:29... "Behold the Lamb of GOD that TAKETH AWAY, the sin of the WORLD." (the word translated World here is "PAS")

Now, just how many sins were TAKEN AWAY? If they are TAKEN AWAY, they are NO LONGER available to be "held against"...

If you disagree with this verse as well... you might as well take the Words of the Bible and toss them... for if we cannot STAND upon the ROCK, if it has such VARIANCES... if it's words cannot be determined with consistency and continuity... then how can we know when ALL is in fact, ALL, ...and when it is SOME?

The truth is, that PRIDE is the issue that necessitates the varied and excuse ridden explanations that ALL sometimes means ALL and sometimes it means SOME... that is to say sometimes BLACK is BLACK, and sometimes it is WHITE... come on...

These verses are but few of MANY that use this word, that use it in a way NECESSITATES that WE DEPEND on it to be ALL...

It is not an option of convenience... it is either ALL or it is NOT... Anyone can argue, and anyone can disagree, but if truth knocks on your door and you don't answer, then it is your decision (via GOD's WILL) NOT to LISTEN at this time...

Annihilation and Eternal torment are doctrines that are ILLOGICAL.. A being that is ALMIGHTY and IS Love... not SAVING the lives of the stupid and decieved sheep... sheep that are in fact in a battle with an adversary MUCH MORE POWERFUL than they.. and succumbed.. or, as in MOST cases, ...never even heard the decree He sent out... ...YET!

The Only GOSPEL that makes SENSE.. AND is VERIFIED by Scripture, AND by the EXPERIENCE of LIFE...

Anyone that is a PARENT, knows that He/she would GIVE up LIFE if necessary to SAVE and or PROTECT their offspring... no matter what that offspring has done or not done... The 3 of us could go back and forth for months, years, and get no farther than we have... I say one thing, you say another to refute.. but if you refute what I have said above and verified in scripture that its CONSISTENCY MUST be on-going, then we, in essence may be just wasting each others time... I do NOT wish to waste mine, ...I am certain you do NOT wish to waste yours...

The biggest difference between you two and I is, ...that I have already traveled the road you now are upon... I was a believer in that which you preach to me!

I went from ET to annihilation because it portrayed at least, a MERCIFUL aspect to GOD's Judgement... but, something remained fishy to me... so I studied and prayed and studied and prayed... then in my own words, ALOUD wished that God would save ALL...

after all, none of us asked to come here... none of us have had a glimpse of Heaven or "Hell" or Judgement...How can we truly pick one or the other? It is like asking a person blind from birth what their favorite color is! ...how can this be fair? It isn't... but God IS FAIR... because He will not let even ONE of His creatures PERISH forever... Yes, He is THAT GREAT!

Of course you will not believe because I say so.. and rightly so... to KNOW anything that is SPIRITUALLY TRUE, takes an HONEST and FERVENT effort! Then, in God's time, He shows each FERVENT and HONEST searcher the Truth that one is deemed to know, the truth he is deemed to preach... and brings forth the RESULTS by HIS WILL not by our efforts... (lest any man should boast)

So, ...I guess what I am saying is this... if I have NOT convinced you of GOD's plan to save ALL... then you will just have to eventually experience it... or maybe I have not been CHOSEN to be the one to convey it to you... I do NOT know one way or the other... I wish neither of you any ill, and do pray and ask God's blessing according to your hearts search for Him...

In JESUS ...WillieH

WillieH wrote:WillieH: Hi Spoz..
BTW I am going on vacation for a few weeks, (Sunday) and will review when I get back... not ignoring, just vacating...

Have a great holiday... see you when you return.

Steve

WillieH: Hi Spozz and Tall...

One thing I can say about the 2 of you... I believe both of you are searching... (unlike Eugene and others here), and when one searches... God promises that one will FIND... I know we are presently in disagreement... that's okay... it is part of the process... You 2 have a spirit that has worked with the Lord, in my life to bring about more Humility which, IMO ...IS Majesty... I thank you both for that...

Just keep in mind, that NO associated writings of another can verify truth... only the Holy Spirit is able to do this... that is why the promise is from God.. we are to SEARCH the SCRIPTURES not search the writings of others... (dont get me wrong... it is profitable to read the comments of others... but the BIBLE is the ONLY AUTHORITY... others are NOT authorities... just opinions.. (including me)

If you do find, via your searching that what I have been saying is truth, then you may always find me at TENTMAKER Forum (its kind of my internet home base)... I post there 4 or 5 times a week... The Lord is telling me that my work here is over... and to leave this forum... and depart from any further disagreements, leaving all here to His further work...

There is one other here that I believe is searching... DAISY... a true heart for the Lord (as opposed to an opinion about the LORD)

I truly from the heart wish both of you HIS TRUTH... and even though you do not see the Salvation of ALL, it WILL come to fruition.. to ALL of our delight... and the peace of this is beyond knowledge... beyond any human perception.. and its VICTORY.. total (we really couldn't expect less from the LORD) ...is COMEPLETENESS... truly COMPLETE... and LOVE loses not even ONE of His children... not even ONE SHEEP will remain LOST....

I bid you guys farewell... I do LOVE you in the Lord... and will continue to pray for you eyes to find ALL the light God intends for you to find in His time...

In JESUS ...WillieH ...servant...

WilleH, if you get a chance please post the tentmaker address.

God bless you.

Hi WillieH

Sorry to see you leave the forum. May God bless you, too, as you continue your journey.

Regards
Steve

WillieH: Hi Tall & Spozz...

The tentmaker address is...

http://www.tentmaker.org/smf/

Take care guys... JESUS' blessings upon you both...

In JESUS ...WillieH ...servant...

WillieH wrote:John 1:29... "Behold the Lamb of GOD that TAKETH AWAY, the sin of the WORLD." (the word translated World here is "PAS")

Now, just how many sins were TAKEN AWAY? If they are TAKEN AWAY, they are NO LONGER available to be "held against"...

If you disagree with this verse as well... you might as well take the Words of the Bible and toss them... for if we cannot STAND upon the ROCK, if it has such VARIANCES... if it's words cannot be determined with consistency and continuity... then how can we know when ALL is in fact, ALL, ...and when it is SOME?

I suppose you are already gone, but I might head over to that forum soon. Checked it out just a bit already.

A quick note though, the word is the genetive form of cosmos, the usual word for earth. It is not pas. I checked the NA text, as well as the majoirty, and didn't even see any variant readings.

WillieH: Hi Tall..

I got an email concerning this post... and I stand corrected on this verse... thanks... I should've picked another for my references... did it from memory (which is the 2nd thing to go... cant remember what the 1st thing is!)

Anyway... I will have to make sure in the future, not to just call them up from memory, even though it still is quite a concrete verse...

feel welcome to investigate tentmaker... lots of good posting and much activity daily..

In JESUS ...WillieH ...servant...

A quick note though, the word is the genetive form of cosmos, the usual word for earth. It is not pas.

willieH: Hello...

This is YEARS old, but I needed to correct my error...

WillieH wrote:WillieH: Hi Tall..

I got an email concerning this post... and I stand corrected on this verse... thanks... I should've picked another for my references... did it from memory (which is the 2nd thing to go... cant remember what the 1st thing is!)

Anyway... I will have to make sure in the future, not to just call them up from memory, even though it still is quite a concrete verse...

feel welcome to investigate tentmaker... lots of good posting and much activity daily..

In JESUS ...WillieH ...servant...

A quick note though, the word is the genetive form of cosmos, the usual word for earth. It is not pas.

This is correct... the word is KOSMOS #G2889 -- but irregardless... the "SIN" that JESUS "taketh AWAY" -- John 1:29 -- includes ALL SIN which has occured within the CREATION, which is what "KOSMOS defined", ...means...

Which means there is NO SIN to be "held against" anyone, as Paul noted HERE: 2 Cor 5:19

...willieH ...servant

Rogue Physicist wrote:Raise a few children without discipline, and then call me.

In agape, RP.

You are so far from the pathway, it is sorrowful bro...

I have raised 3 children, and enlisted DISCIPLINE, throughout their upbringing... the "discipline" I raised them with did not include BULLYING them, INTIMIDATING them, or instilling FEAR (as in "being afraid") in them...

I raised them in LOVE... and though there were times when they were come in touch with the ROD of CORRECTION... that ROD was NEVER used to bring HARM, FEAR or INTIMIDATION... NEVER was it used to injure, either mentally, physically or spiritually...

My son is raising 3 children of his own... He specifically took me aside one day and told me that He appreciated my method of parenting... and that he would LOVE his children in the very same way. Btw... his kids don't TREMBLE and SHAKE when he walks into the room... they wish to BE with him at all times!

DISCIPLINE does not mean to INTIMIDATE... LOVE casts OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 -- and anyone amidst the practice and ADMINISTRATION of FEAR is NOT in touch with, nor knows LOVE...

May you one day be freed from your present imprisonment --

...willieH