Ellen White on ministers running board meetings

tall73 · Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 04 Aug 2004 Posts: 96

I am new to the forums, and this is my first post. I realize that this point is secondary to the major content of this thread, but I wanted to ask for some clarification on a point raised.

Can you direct me to the Ellen White comments that speak of ministers running board meetings? I was only able to find general quotes that spoke of over involvment in financial matters which business minds were more suited for.

In our particular church our board does not even handle most business items. We have a finance committee that does most of the work and we oversee it. We have small business matters handled by a mantanence and expense committee.

We usually focus primarily on outreach, with probably 90 percent of all agenda items being toward evangelism. Would it be wrong for a pastor to lead out in this way? It is true that financial matters can be a burden, but planning outreach for the laity IS the work of leadership, both ministerial and lay leadership. AS it is the Elders set the agenda in their elders meeting in conjunction with the pastor.

The general context of this one is both business matters and outside work....

Ross · Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 07 Jan 2004 Posts: 45

Let us look at what we are really seeing.

In the Catholic Churches we see a panel of special Officers designed to control everything. The laity are only there for window dressing and finacial support. The daily lead Office glories in the title "Priest."

The reason for that is because all the rights and responsibilities properly bestowed upon the laity, was look again stolen from them and arrogated to the very elect.

It was claimed way back then that the laity were too ignorant to represent the church properly so people were selcted to do it all for them. Thus, the masses became mere passengers or onlookers at what should have been a constant activity by all in the worship of God.

Those churches, and all the others who cling to the same systems of evident worship are known as "Authoritarian Churches" i.e. they will tell you if you are right - in their view - but will never tell you how they know.

By boldly and arrogantly stating that the laity were too ignorant to represent the church they set in motion a self-fulling prophecy, and very soon, the laity was indeed too ignorant.

In the S.D.A. Church things are supposed to be vastly different because from the outset, it is not an authoritarian church, but a doctrinal church. i.e. a church in which everyone is "supposed" to be as educated in spiritual things as the minister. And some are. More than that, Jesus' own words have greater weight than in other congregations in that His words,"Ye are all brethren." Must be heeded.

Obviously, an egalitarian body will quickly develop massive stresses if there is no clear and distinct lines of order. To meet this the SO.P. specifically declares, "The minister must not chair the Church business meetings, nor the Church board. The minister must not hover over the churches. The persons specifically designed by God to Chair those meetings, is one of the elders. That is what you have elders for.

The minister is to conduct missions in the Towns and Cities where he is placed. Note these words:- "That is his job."

Thus we see, in the good order of God, that everything is carefully taken care of. Duties delegated to all.

Now, it is not correct to imagine that evangelism is solely the province of the minister, for it is the duty of every member by specific instruction by God who said, "Go ye into the highways and the byeways and preach the gospel to every creature teaching them all things whatsoever I have told you. He who believes and is baptised, the same shall be saved but he who believes not, shall be damned."

A new minister wanted to talk to the laity about baptism. This is what he told them. "Baptism is non-salvific." That man himself baptised had only got wet. He did not know that baptism involved being buried with Christ, and being raisedup into newness of life (which is salvation).

That minister wanted full control of our church, so he sought a fight with the only elder we had, then worked to ensure no one was appointed.
He then, struck at outlittle church with a papal interdict locking the door to prevent any worship of our God being conducted and we had to go somewhere else.

I found a small S.D.A. group who are ardent followers of the S.O.P. and only lacked an Organist, so I was home free.

Perhaps a comment on the gang warfare would not go amiss.
It is important to keep in mind that all manner of crimes will be carried out right in front of you without you being aware of them ifyou are not up with the play.
It is the same with persecution. If you are not genuinely interested and dynamically involved in outreach, you will be utterly unaware of people being savagely persecuted tight in front of your eyes. But you will hear of it, and you will hear the excuse for it, and having no love for dying souls you will tend to agree and walk away. I have seen this many times. The excuse is always the same:- "Oh some people bring persecution on themselves." What they are saying is "WE are far too prudent to become involved in this." In simple terms they are saying "We are not about to do the work the Lord has bidden us to do."

Concerning the duties of the ministers and the elders I do not particularly know where those instructions are. I dont knowbecause I am only interested in understanding what the S.O.P. says to me. I never bother to remember the book, and page number in which it is recorded. Anyone who has such an interest can look it up for themselves. It is not rocket science. Try some of those words on the web and it is certain to come up.
Another sure fire way is to ask one of the independants they make it an article of faith to know them.
Sincerely,
Ross
_________________
R.R. Pollock

Eugene Shubert

tall73 · Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 04 Aug 2004 Posts: 96

Ross · Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 07 Jan 2004 Posts: 45

Dear brethren,
In my last post I wrote "The minister should not run church meetings or business meetings." In this I erred due to extreme weariness. The actual words from the S.O.P. are these:-
"The ministers are not to "Waste their time" sitting on Church meetings nor board meetings." "That is the job of the elders."

The reason why?? "If the ministers do all of this, "the church becomes enfeebled."

From 70 years of experience I am well aware that the members become superstitious and quickly become afraid to step forth and do that work.

The reason I only rarely know exactly where to find those writings is because E.G. White stated, "You are not to say Sister White said this, or Sister White said that, you are to put my books to one side, and never read them again until you can believe the Bible!!" That was about 1901 or 1903.

What was she really saying? The S.O.P. is its own authority and is to be listened to most carefully. To me it is not Ellen White who is conveying those most precious truths, but God the Holy Spirit who we ignore at our peril.

As to whether anyone believes me or accepts what I gracefully impart for their Spiritual edification, affects me not at all. Nor am I in any particular interested in vain argumentation. I have said what I have said, in good faith, and make it a principle in all I say that none will be deceived or misled by me.

If I even slightly suspected that I was incorrect, I would not dare venture to comment.

I notice however an attempt to make a difference between "Then and Now" a political ploy I can never become involved in for it is in this manner that men ever seek to alter the goal posts and enter into interminable debate while losing sight of "Everything Important." (To coin a phrase.)

It seems remarkably odd that men would make much of observing the Sabbath while spurning the equally important instructions laid down for running the Church by God the Holy Spirit. Beware of the attitude that winds up saying "We will not have this man to rule over us."

Long before I ever decided to join the S.D.A. Church, I collected a vast number of books written by E.G. White, and studied the book by Pastor Canright "Seventh-day Adventism Renounced" to provide me with some degree of balance. Being an avid reader I was soon well informed concerning the Church, but it might be of value to be aware that I came out of the Anglican Church and it dismays me greatly to observe the obvious, determined move within the Church to become Seventh-day Anglicans, Baptists or maybe Salvationists which inevitably will result in the destruction of the people of God.

E.G. White refers to two churches:- The Seventh-day Adventists V The Hated Sect. Of the latter she wrote, "We were a small, little known group but the Seventh-day Adventists reported us to the Catholics."

"As we were going from house to house with our Bibles under our arms, our ministers were making common cause with our enemies!!"

I accept that this may not presently being done in your respective neck of the woods, but it surely is being done in mine.

A local group had printed a stack of newspapers and were out distributing them when a local talkback radio station became beseiged by people ringing in complaining about S.D.A.s letterboxing anti-papal material. Suddenly a very well known voice chimed in stated - quite accurately that he was a Seventh-day Adventist minister and wanted to add his voice to the local confusion. He was asked if they really were S.D.A. and he unwisely replied "Yes!" Further questions elicited the admission that he did not know them. Then he admitted that they didn't belong to his church, but congregated. Asked where? He replied "We don't know."
First, they were Adventists. Second, He didn't know them? But he knew they did not belong to his church - which was a lie, but then claimed to know that they congregated, but did not know where?? He also claimed to know that they where distributing anti-papal material to embarrass the Church??

The man who had arranged this, learned the name and phone number of the man who started this witch-hunt, and rang him asking which particular parts upset him? He was told, "I dont know yet, I haven't read it??" So he was advised to read it first and then give this man a ring to disguss it. A few hours later that man did ring back and apologised profusely since it had nothing about the Papacy in it at all!!

Although the two men lived hundreds of miles apart, when our man went on a visit of the North Island he visited this fellow and they disgussed matters at length parting fast friends.

Who is causing all the trouble? Satan through our regular ministers.

There appears to be some doubt about my assertion of gang warfare so try this for size.

That minister I just mentioned, came back to New Zealand from England. It had be noised about that he had been trained in the SAS in England, and was going to sort out the CB s.

He visited me and explained much the same, and then told me that, on his first visit to the Wellington Church, he saw a well known man standing on the footpath out side with a shotgun waiting for him to show up.
He therefore walked around the church building and coming up behind him put his arm around his throat strangling him to the ground.

The thing which demonstrates that to be an outright lie is the fact that in our Capital City of Wellington, no one dare even carry an air pistol in his pocket without being immediately arrested. The thought of someone standing in full view with a shotgun indicates that the purveyor of that lie has never seen a shotgun.

Of course it made him a hero to those in the Conference Office.

A small group of Seventh-day Adventists decided to run a mission in a distant City. They hired a Hall, and at the last minute were advised that their right to hire it had been withdrawn because the minister had demanded that they be forbidden!! Fortunately some other people let them use their Hall to help them out.

People have the right to bury their heads in the sand lest their eyes be opened and they see the destruction of the denomination occuring right in front of them if they wish, but I personally believe it to be unwise.
Sincerely,
Ross Pollock
_________________
R.R. Pollock

tall73 · Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 04 Aug 2004 Posts: 96

I will try to rephrase. First of all, I understand what you are saying about the quotes, no problem there.

Second, on the point of a different time period, there is no doubt that we do things differently today. In fact, by saying so I am quite agreeing with you. If the ministers were in new territories pushing forward the work we would not be dictating to congregations. I am not suggesting that we should have a lower standard now. In fact I am suggesting that we have ALREADY changed the goal posts in the wrong direction. But if our people are ever to understand what must be done now to change, they must understand what we did then to get here in the first place. Now, as always our goal should be to create churches which train members to be ministers to those around them. And we need to use all of the people schoooled as ministers to do the work of evangelism. But it is no political ploy to show where we have abandoned those very things we should be about.

As to the idea of gang warfare, it is fairly common knowledge that many of these thing happen. I am insulated from some of these happenings in my current area, but in the town I grew up in such things were more prevalent, and discussed more regularly. I too am sad to see it. But to prepare the people of God for gang warfare is to make quite difficult the kind of reconciliation which you described above in the case where the man was misinformed. I am not suggesting that people should not stand for the truth, but I am suggesting that if we are ever to convince those who are committing the abuses we must

a. Exhibit a quite different spirit from theirs.

b. Be willing to admit that such things happen and deal with them when they do (I agree on this though neither of us is really in a good place to do it. Certainly we can do it in our own sphere of influence).

c. Look for ways to teach our members not to be ready for gang warfare, but to be tenderhearted and compassionate one to another. This should not be done at the expense of the truth, but we should not convey it as a militaristic campaign. These same men who are ministers today were church members in previous years and learned a spirit of political warfare. That is why they are so good at it today.

watch_the_money · is under review Joined: 06 Jun 2004 Posts: 1

I have been an SDA for close to 50 years and have noticed a trend.

Appears that pastors are are intent controlling the church as never before. Our pastor recently "fired" all elders except for three. On the face, I could see no rationale why he would keep the three and let the other 7 or 8 go. For close to 3 yrs. he has had "tight" control with the Ministry Placement Team (nominating comm) and when asked why those elders were fired... one on the board said that the pastor told them what he wanted and "we did it".

Recently, a new nom. committee has convened. This is the 2nd nom. committee since this new pastor's arrival. In line with the changes made at the GC meeting in Canada (2000) , he inserted himself as the chairman of that board. My wife and I have been on several nominating comm. and I have chaired one. In the past, our church has the pastor present if he wanted to attend as a courtesy and to get his input. But, now he is basically controlling what is done. After reading the new church manual, it appears that he is doing what the changes intended. He is now expected to be the chair.

I am getting "fed up" with pastors with large egos. This new pastor was not near as familiar as many of the members in our church and is a fairly young pastor. I did not join a cult 50 years ago, but am beginning to feel that I now belong to one.

If the leaders do not wake up soon, they are going to see more and more of what Ron Gladden is doing. I see more and more members getting frustrated with the leadership of our church. I believe it is well deserved.

God cannot lead when the leaders will not allow God to lead.