A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
I have often pondered this topic of the nature of the Son of man. Ellen clearly says that he had a fallen human nature:
“Notwithstanding that the sins of a guilty world were laid upon Christ, notwithstanding the humiliation of taking upon Himself our fallen nature, the voice from heaven declared Him to be the Son of the Eternal.” DA 112
Interestingly enough a few pages away she makes this statment which leaves much to ponder:
“....After tempting man to sin, Satan claimed the earth as his, and styled himself the prince of this world. Having conformed to his own nature the father and mother of our race, he thought to establish here his empire. He declared that men had chosen him as their sovereign.” DA 114
These words, ("Having conformed to his own nature the father and mother of our race...") more than imply that the fallen nature is, as Satan's nature. As I considered it, the thought came to me: “What does that nature look like?” It would be adversarial to God’s will, independent in it’s thinking, such as Lucifer, when he thought he was able to exist without God. (I know it is a foolish thing to think, that a created being could live without his Creator, but never the less???) These things are indeed ‘natural to our being.
Then I had to consider how could this be that the Son took the adversary’s nature, it seemed a little odd to even think. What came to me was, to erase any question of the completeness and depth of the salvation provided, He would have to take something like the Titanic on His shoulders and swim the Pacific ocean, to prove fullness of God’s power to save. Then this final quote:
"Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured." DA117
Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:29 pm Post subject: "the Son took the adversary’s nature"
Judah,
It's a sin to suggest that Jesus was depraved in his nature.
If you insist on building your theology from the writings of Ellen G. White, why not quote all the statements by Ellen White that seem contrary to the thoughts you've posted and support an opposite conclusion?
Mr. Shubert, I neither implied nor stated that “Jesus was depraved”. These are your words not mine. Should you read again in full what I said, perhaps you will see that to be the case. I do not imply that Jesus was Satan or any such thing. I did however intend the description of the “fallen human nature” as Satanic to have a shock factor in it. For it was a shock to me when I first saw it, and it brings one to look close at the subject, perhaps in a way that he never has before. Ellen clearly states that Satan gave us “his nature”. She also says that the Son took upon Himself our fallen nature. It was a simple deduction. But I would ask you to patiently consider something. The human nature that the Son took upon Himself was this very thing. If He had expressed it, He would then have failed in His mission and then could have been considered “depraved” as you have said, but He did not.
It is a part of the fallen nature to think the best of itself. We think we can get better, but the only freedom from this nature, is to die to it.
Some souls have had fewer inherited traits to sin than I do, and fewer cultivated traits to sin than I did. But these ‘nice’ people have the same nature that I do. It is fallen, naturally self centered and naturally adversarial to God, they just have a better way of hiding it. But even this “niceness” is considered filthy rags before heaven. So, everyone of us can know, that given the right circumstances, without the spirit of God to intervene, we would commit the worst crimes known to man. One only needs to look at what is going on in the word right now to know who we really are in heart; Satan. That is why we need a new nature, a divine nature to bring a divine life into our soul.
The other thing, and the most important thing that I wished to bring before this forum, is the tremendous blessing that comes with this “shocking” revelation about our fallen human nature and it’s hopeless ability to be fixed.
We are advised to tread carefully with this subject and this I wish to do, so please allow me to continue. We are told that He was fully divine and fully human. This, we are told, is a mystery. I believe it is the mystery of godliness, a mystery that we are to experience.
Scripture tells us that God is a spirit. When the Son stood on the brink of eternity and said, “Lo, I come, in the volume of the book it is written of me...”, He was a FULLY divine ‘spirit’ Being. At that point this “spirit Being” entered the womb of Mary and became ONE with a FULLY human being having a fallen nature. The Son brought with Him only one ability that He could exercise. All other abilities He gave up, and was totally dependent upon the Father to bring to pass. That which He brought into this union was the ability to “lay down His life”. This is not natural to humanity. The human is very good at standing up and being seen and heard, but it cannot lay down without divine aide. This wonderful self sacrificing ability is what kept Jesus’ fallen human nature from ever expressing itself. From the womb to the cross it was silent and flat. This was a divine act provided through the Son.
This wonderful blessing occurs in any fallen human in the same way. When I came to the place where I ask the Son to enter my heart, a divine spirit Being of no less stature, not a modified son, but the same Son that came into Mary’s womb, came into me. It was also at the point of conception -- the conception of my new birth. He the fully divine Son, a spirit became ONE with me, who is fully human. This is His promise in John 14 and the fulfillment of His prayer in John 17. To be ONE with Him. Therefore we see another, fully divine, fully human union. I’m the human, He is the divine. Here is the power and the mystery of godliness. It is His ability being express in me, to lay down my life and stay there. My nature is totally corrupt and satanic in and of it self, but what does that matter if it never expresses itself again, because the beloved Son is now my life. He was so surrendered to God that the Father alone was seen in His life, and so it is again.
“All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. (this is how the two are seen as one) “The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us.” DA 668. Isn’t this the most wonderful revelation?
“The Lord sends His richest endowments of reason and reasoning to a people He loves, and who keep His commandments. He has by no means forsaken His people who are working in His lines. God is seeking to make His church the continued incarnation of Christ. “ MR Vol. 7 pg. 91
These words, “the continued incarnation of Christ”, are they not the most wonderful expression of the mystery of godliness?
I found these words on this forum, from the hand of Eugene Shubert:
Quote:
"Christ’s human nature was “in the likeness of sinful flesh” (Ro. 8:3). It was in every way like our sinful human nature. .....What I mean by this is that the two natures are essentially the same because one is the mirror image of the other.
I agree, the human nature of Jesus and mine are the same. However the divine nature of the Son within me is my vantage ground.
I have been thinking about what it meant for the Son to bear our sins. These statements from Mrs. White give us a picture of that.
“As one with us, He must bear the burden of our guilt and woe. The Sinless One must feel the shame of sin. The peace lover must dwell with strife, the truth must abide with falsehood, purity with vileness. Every sin, every discord, every defiling lust that transgression had brought, was torture to His spirit.”
“...alone He must bear the burden. Upon Him who had laid off His glory and accepted the weakness of humanity the redemption of the world must rest. He saw and felt it all, but His purpose remained steadfast. Upon His arm depended the salvation of the fallen race, and He reached out His hand to grasp the hand of Omnipotent Love.” DA 111
It seems that the savior had an intimate knowledge and experience with every kind of sin as here stated by Mrs. White. How could that be, and He not be “depraved”? Consider this:
I have never used heroin, but God could readily put the terrible symptoms of withdrawal and the felt need for more heroin in my body, for me to bear. Before me, could be placed a simple way to have these overwhelming feelings removed, not necessarily the drug, but perhaps a glass of water or a stone that could be turned into bread. The temptation would be to partake of the “relief” that lay at my fingertips, or I could bear it. I could be made to bear this trial and lay down to it until my Father chose to remove it, or I could consent to find relief without His help, the choice would be mine. I could have all these “soul defiling lusts” placed upon me and not be defiled by them. I could come off victor in the freely offered strength of "Omnipotent Love". I could then feel what it is like to be an addict, I could then understand what he goes through. I could then be able to succor and comfort his soul as he struggled with the temptation, for I had borne it too. Does this explain how the saviour could have this fallen (satanic) nature placed upon Him and not be “depraved” or affected by it?
Hello Eugene,
I have yet to find a reasonable or intelligent response to my post, only false accusation and imprisonment. Is it that you are too busy? I expect that your personal work and the management of this forum could take quite a bit of your thought and time so I have allowed a while for that.
I would ask you to consider, that without proper investigation and questioning of my intent, your placement of the icon of the snake under my name, and the other of the devil with flames, as well as my removal to jail, smack of the one who was cast down to the earth, for he is the accuser of the brethren. You have accused me of something that I neither said nor do I hold in my heart. I would ask you to carefully consider what has been written instead of casting it off as so much nonsense.
I understand that you feel a responsibility to weed out troublemakers, decent and error as you are led to do so, for after all, it is your forum. However, I would ask you to weed out your own false notions about what was written in my post and consider it responsibly. Wherein have I erred?
If you wish to do this, but time constraints do not allow, I am willing to wait. If not, so be it.
I read “The Great Need of the Holy Spirit”, on this forum, and found these statements, the principles of which are enduring.
Quote:
“No human being is to sit in judgment upon his brother. Neither are any to feel that they can handle roughly the precious pearls for which Christ gave his life."
Quote:
"All discourtesy, all pain, all neglect, which these souls suffer at your hands, is charged against you as inflicted upon Jesus Christ. They are not to be treated in a lordly, commanding manner."
Quote:
"It is not for those in places of authority to employ all their powers to sustain some, while others are cast down, ignored, forsaken, and left to perish."
Quote:
"None are to exercise their human authority to bind minds and souls of their fellow-men. They are not to devise and put in practice methods and plans to bring every individual under their jurisdiction."
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