A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
Posted: Wed May 01, 2002 7:18 pm Post subject: Healings and Tongues
Some teach that healings and tongues are part of the true church ( I agree) Some teach they are not meant to be there at all (I'm curious about the evidence for this)
I wonder, If healings and tongues are part of the church of Jesus, then where is the line drawn for the signs and miracles that can be duplicated by Satan? How do we identify the difference between the true healings and the false ones? And how do we know the tongues that are from God and from the Devil? I've heard many stories about speaking in foreign tongues, but I'm am of the belief that this is not the correct interpretation of the Bible's reference to Speaking with Tongues. _________________ "knit together in love"
If I may suggest a starting point to distinguish true from false gifts, we should start with scripture. Since the true gifts are from God, they will:
1. Agree with scripture in any doctrinal material they expound
2. Produce the gifts of the spirit (Gal 5)
3. Lead people to a closer walk with God (the God of scripture).
It is easy to claim false gifts if one is not firmly grounded in scripture. There are true gifts of enormous power (John 14:12), but they will come to some, not all, and they will be dispensed as God sees fit for the furtherance of the work. _________________ Webmaster, The Bible Only
Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2002 10:08 pm Post subject: Tongues
Yes 3angelsmum, i would prefer to use the definition of speaking in tongues as
the Supernatural ability to speak a language or tongue that you DO NOT know already for the purpose of teaching the Gospel?
Actually since I posted last time I came across the scripture in 1 Corinthians 12:28 which places the importance of tongues at the bottom of a list, when in fact many people seem to think that speaking in tongues is for some personal gift, to be honoured about that of what verse 28 says.
"And God hath set come in the church, first apostles, secondairily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversisties of tongues."
And this verse could well answer my own question as to where to draw the line.
If someone claim to speak in tongues and they have not been given that gift by an apostles or prophet or minister of God's church, then that person is more or less "possess". Because it would seem that everything must be done in order.
Anyways, I'll keep looking for more support. _________________ "knit together in love"
Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Posts: 15 Location: San Diego California USA
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 2:48 am Post subject:
Ok, in that case, then YES I do think that the gift of tongues is still in the Church.
I am not sure who, but I heard an evangelist say once that he was teaching to a large crowd, and a veitnamese woman came up to him after the service and commended him on his beautiful veitnamese sermon, and that she didn't know it was going to be given in her own tongue. The man was an American white guy, and was speaking English. (so HE thought). The people around them heard the conversation, and said that while SHE spoke in veitnamese and he spoke in English they were carrying on as if they understood one another.
A few weeks later she was Baptized!
That kind of 'supernatural' manefestation is TOTALLY of God, and for sure, an example of the gift of tongues present in the Church today.
As for your understanding that it is the least of gifts, you are very correct. I think that it was made known to the early members that this new and exciting gift was out there, and people were seeking to get it, so to speak. Paul, under inspiration, wrote to remind everyone that the HS is not to edify oneself, or to get a 'good feeling' while at church or in prayer, but that His role first to enable us to Preach the Gospel, and second to be our Comforter.
Hope this helps!
Peace _________________ Why do we always laugh at things that aren't funny?
I like the story you told of the vietnamese lady. I agree that the way the Holy Ghost works with the speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues is for the benefit of others, and not for the benefit of ourselves. I am unaware of any instance (correct me if I'm wrong) in the Bible that the speaking in tongues is mentioned for personal gratification or benefit. In fact, I don't agree with speaking in tongues being known as the prayer language nor do I believe that we are not born again unless we have spoken in tongues.
The scary thing is, that people who say they are speaking in tongues when it doesn't conform to the Bible's use, must be allowing themselves to be possessed. Would you agree? Otherwise what explaination would there be? _________________ "knit together in love"
Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Posts: 15 Location: San Diego California USA
Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2002 2:21 pm Post subject:
I agree with everything you said, which is really rare!
There is a VERY good chance that people who speak this 'prayer language' are indeed being enabled through an unclean spirit rather than the Holy Spirit. There is one verse that says praying in the Holy Ghost, but IT DOES NOT EVER imply that it is mumbling to the speaker! That is the one verse that 'tongues' believers use to say that you need it in order for God to know what you are saying. Like He doesn't speak English or something! :)
I was told once that I had 'little faith' because I didn't speak in tongues, not because I couldn't but because I didn't. This assumption is so vile and just reeks of a lie of the devil!
Saying that you MUST speak in tongues is saying that your salvation is works based, if you throw that one out there, most tongue prayers will listen to the truth, because according to the core of that movements doctrines, their salvation is TOTALLY and completely GRACE, and they can live however they want as long as on Sunday they can manefest some mumbling!
Peace _________________ Why do we always laugh at things that aren't funny?
Funny how "salvation by works alone" is a dirty word for most born agains, but, tongues is different. Like how?
So, just how does one accept speaking in tongues these days. I still believe it is part of the true church, but I am inclined to think that there is much "need" for speaking in tongues today. Most people have access to interpreters or because the gospel is readily available in the native language of many people there isn't much call for it.
Your story about the vietnamese lady is one like I have heard before. And also I think that someone can 'easily learn a new language' and be termed as speaking in tongues - but they would still be actually speaking in that langauage.
I think the vietnamese lady was experiencing the "interpretation of tongues" perhaps. Agree? _________________ "knit together in love"
Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Posts: 15 Location: San Diego California USA
Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 3:18 am Post subject:
The funniest part of that is that it isn't funny at all! lol
They FRIEK out when you tell them that the 10 commandments are still valid and that the Sabbath is still as important as say not commiting adultery and they scream 'works!!!' But you tell them they DO NOT have to speak in tongues to be saved and they, again, friek! Very sad paradox.
The vietnamese lady was indeed experiencing interpretation, and the evangelist was experiencing the actual 'diverse tongues'. It is actually such a simple concept, it amazes me at times at how many people find the subject confusing!
It is weird and refreshing to have someone agree with me on the internet!
Peace _________________ Why do we always laugh at things that aren't funny?
So. . . just how can we help our Christian friends who are a little short-sighted with the Light?
Actually, I've also been doing some research of late with regard to the laying on of hands for spiritual gifts and other such godly powers. Have you ever looked into that, or even have an opinion to share on it? _________________ "knit together in love"
Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Posts: 15 Location: San Diego California USA
Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 1:46 am Post subject:
Well, considering how serious most 'tongue' speakers take this manefestation, it is a touchy subject.
I have only been successful in convincing ONE person that it wasn't of God, and that was myself! It is a hard thing to come to terms with, that you were being manipulated by evil spirits. I think that to reach someone it is very important to reassure them that they have been lied to, and that through no fault of their own, they were deceived. Always showing them how precious they are to us and to God. Speak the truth in love. Almost with an attitude of 'I am really, genuinely concerned for you'. That way it doesn't come across as judgemental or condescending!
As far as the scriptures, any good concordance will show the places where tongues were used, and since there is 'silence' in the Word on the whole 'prayer language' it is fairly easy to dispell. However, (a big however) the way that it makes people feel is very addictive. These people actually feel like they are being touched by God. Then here we come telling them it is a big fat lie, and that it most likely was a demon making them feel all warm and happy, bursting their bubble. I must say it takes some serious prayer (1), and a good level of tact (2) and a whole lot of Holy Spirit intervention!(3)
Breaking the bonds of a spiritual deception is a hard thing to do, but God is able, and He will prove Himself to be faithful if we put Him in control.
Have a blessed Day! _________________ Why do we always laugh at things that aren't funny?
Thanks so much for your comments. Like you, it really is rare to find someone on the net with the same level of insight. So far onthis forum, you are the only one to come anywhere close. My other threads have been renegated as heresy, by those who should know better.
Ta. _________________ "knit together in love"
Joined: 09 Dec 2002 Posts: 69 Location: Largo Florida
Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2002 6:14 am Post subject:
I have only been successful in convincing ONE person that it wasn't of God, and that was myself!
There was a boy name John who had an final test exam at school that consisted of one question to which he did not know the answer. So he made up his own queston and answered it. Did he pass the exam? Of course not.
Your approach seems to be similar as you ignore many scriptures about tongues especially:
Acts 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
19:2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
19:3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."
19:4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
19:6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
19:7 Now the men were about twelve in all.
1COR 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
1COR 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
14:3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
1COR 14:37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
14:38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
14:39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Posts: 15 Location: San Diego California USA
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:13 am Post subject:
Thank you for proving my point.
You make a point that you don't even realize.
'They were baptized in the Name.....of the Lord Jesus'
Note, that prior to this they were NOT baptized 'in the Holy Spirit' as you call it. YET, and TOTALLY contrary to THE DOCTRINE THAT IS absolutely UNDENIABLY predicated by the 'tongues' teachers THEY WERE......
DISCIPLES
The Corinthians passage is NOT in support of this phantom prayer language, Paul is correcting the Corinthians for their abuse of the REAL gift.
Your own doubt in this doctrine is apparent in your skipping of the verses between 5 and 37.
Allow me.....
1Co 14:6-36 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? 7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? 9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. 11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. 18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. 20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the LORD. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth 26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
Interestingly enough, your choice of defense wipes away any hope you may have had in proving me wrong, or whatever you were trying to do.
And, unlike your boy John, I never answer a question that I don't know the true answer to.
You should try that. _________________ Why do we always laugh at things that aren't funny?
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