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Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:48 pm Post subject: Sabbath day questions
My biggest question is about the obvious:
Saturday vs. Sunday as the "sabbath".
I assume you've all heard most or all of these arguments before, but I've never had it explained to me by someone of your faith. Again, I don't mean to be rude or make anyone defensive, I'm just curious.
First, it is said that the 7th-day sabbath was part of the the Law of Moses - a NEW covenant (Deuteronomy 5:3), and that the whole law was temporary - in Hosea 2:11 the Lord says that he would cause the Jewish sabbaths to cease. Paul called the Law of Moses a "schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ" (Galatians 3:24) and some people say that once Christ had come, there was no further need for the "schoolmaster".
Some say the reason Jesus calls himself the "Lord of the Sabbath" is because He instituted a new sabbath - a replacement sabbath for when the Jewish sabbath ended (Hosea 2:11). He explained that he came to fulfil the law. One author says "Since Jesus came to fulfil the law, why should we still retain it? Why not prefer to accept [the replacement sabbath] he brought to take the place of [the former one]?"
Nothing drives me up the wall quicker than rhetorical question in arguments, but what that author said happens to voice my question.
Obviously, your faith views these passages differently from other faiths. And that's okay. I just wanted to know how your faith interprets them.
I'm sure you're familiar with the passages in the New Testament that refer to Christian worship on Sunday, and teaching the Jews on their sabbaths, Saturday.
Here are some:
John 20:19, 26
Acts 20:7
1 Corinthians 16: 1-2
and the whole "day of Pentecost" thing was the day after the Jewish sabbath.
I've also heard that some of the earliest Greek bibles use the word "sabbath" in place of the phrase "the first day of the week" in eight places:
1 Corinthians 16:2
Acts 20:7
John 20:1, 19
Luke 24:1
Mark 16:2, 9
Matt 28:1 (this one references BOTH sabbaths - Jewish and Christian)
I don't know if that's true, though, I don't know how to access early greek translations.
One last question: In Colossians 2:16 Paul warned the saints that they might be criticized by the Jews because of practices to which the Jews objected. He included "sabbath days" as one of those practices. So the question I have is "How do you interpret that scripture? Were the early Christians observing Saturday as their sabbath? If so, why did Paul warn the church that the Jews might 'judge' them?"
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."
Your biggest question is the easiest to answer. The Bible says that the seventh day of the week is the Sabbath, not the first day of the week. "After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb" (Matthew 28:1).
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In Hosea 2:11 the Lord says that he would cause the Jewish sabbaths to cease.
Indeed. But try to understand the context. Isaiah said that the Lord cannot endure iniquity when combined with the sacred meeting (Isaiah 1:13-15).
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Since Jesus came to fulfil the law, why should we still retain it? Why not prefer to accept [the replacement sabbath] he brought to take the place of [the former one]?
The meaning of fulfill is to fill full. Jesus came to fulfill all righteousness (Matthew 3:15), not to do away with righteousness. The Bible doesn't teach anything about a replacement Sabbath.
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I'm sure you're familiar with the passages in the New Testament that refer to Christian worship on Sunday.
I'm familiar with Acts 2:42 and 46,
"They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer" (Acts 2:42).
"Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart" (Acts 2:46).
Also take a look at Acts 5:42:
"And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ" (Acts 5:42).
You list John 20:19 as evidence for the theory of Sunday sacredness. The text strikes me as referring to Sunday as an exceptionally ordinary day of the week:
So when it was evening on that day, the first of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you." John 20:19.
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One last question: Colossians 2:16. How do you interpret that scripture?
Paul wrote:
"Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—"
Jewish believers in Christ were judging Gentile converts in regard to the food they ate and for undervaluing "sacred" days (cf. Romans 14). Paul taught that food and days were a mere shadow of things to come and that real religion can only be found in Christ. Colossians 2:16-17.
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:20 pm Post subject: (continued)
Thank you for the response. It was helpful.
Other Christian faiths say the sabbath changed when Jesus resurrected. Matt 28:1 could only have reference to the Jewish, Law of Moses sabbath. So I agree with you. That passage definately uses "sabbath" referring to Saturday. Even though it was written a few decades later, at the time it still wasn't (as other churches claim) the 'new' Sabbath.
I'm not sure I understood the part about Isaiah 1:13-15. If I got it right, I understand He's basically calling the Israelites at that point hypocrites... is the Lord threatening to do away with Sabbaths altogether? Along with the feasts, meetings, etc.? I don't know.
I understood your response that 'fulfilling' the law does not necessarily imply instituting a new law. That's fair. I can agree with that. Thank you.
I'm still curious about the passages that suggest Christian worship on Sunday. As for John 20:19, the passage you cited as showing the first day as "exceptionally ordinary", the argument is made that Jesus appearing to the disciples collectively (minus Thomas) doesn't happen just any old day. Moreover, with their respective missionary journeys, those disciples were rarely gathered in one place, and this gathering was just as arguably for worship as it was for deciding what to do about the Jewish threat. I don't see why the wording implies the day was ordinary. Perhaps because it doesn't say "Sabbath" in place of "first day..."
That brings me to my next question: "does anyone know how to obtain an earlier Greek translation of the New Testament?" I'd be very interested. Rumor has it that earlier Greek translations used the word "Sabbath" in a few places, including John 20:19. Again, it's just a rumor. So I'd like to either verify it, or toss it out of consideration. Any help would be good.
I also appreciate your response to Colossians 2:16-17. This was my most gnawing curiosity, but I think I get it now. If I understand right, you understand that Jewish Christians were the ones criticizing the converts who had a harder time with the "holy day" commandments. The Jews were very accustomed to sabbath day observance, so converting to Christianity didn't require much adjustment in that aspect of their lifestyle. But Gentile converts had a harder time with it, so Paul says, don't let it get to you. Put in other words, some Christian converts were criticized from other Christians for undervaluing the Sabbath, rather than being criticized from the Jews for worshipping on an entirely different day. Is that it? That makes sense to me. I've never heard it put that way.
I appreciate the help. Some of my curiosities still remain.
I'll check this thread again in a day or two.
Thank you.
Other Christian faiths say the sabbath changed when Jesus resurrected.
Sure they say it. But the Bible doesn't teach that.
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I'm not sure I understood the part about Isaiah 1:13-15. If I got it right, I understand He's basically calling the Israelites at that point hypocrites... is the Lord threatening to do away with Sabbaths altogether? Along with the feasts, meetings, etc.?
My point is that Hosea 2 is very similar to Isaiah 1:10-17. The context is the same. In Hosea 2:11 God says,
"I will stop all her celebrations:
her yearly festivals, her New Moons,
her Sabbath days-all her appointed feasts."
In the Isaiah passage, God expresses His desire that all these forms of worship would end, but only because it's a cloak for sin. Why should acceptable worship not continue if the people reformed? There's nothing in Hosea 2 and Isaiah 1:10-17 to suggest that God's displeasure for celebrations, yearly festivals, New Moons and Sabbath days would continue if the people repented of their hypocritical insincerity and disobedience.
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I'm still curious about the passages that suggest Christian worship on Sunday. As for John 20:19 ... the argument is made that Jesus appearing to the disciples collectively (minus Thomas) doesn't happen just any old day.
This meeting took place Sunday night. A remarkably similar meeting took place eight days later, a Monday night.
Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you." (John 20:26).
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As for John 20:19, the passage you cited as showing the first day as "exceptionally ordinary" ... I don't see why the wording implies the day was ordinary. Perhaps because it doesn't say "Sabbath" in place of "first day..."
Exactly! In this verse, Sunday isn't called Sunday, Sabbath, the Lord's day, nor is it given any other special designation. It's simply called "the first of the week." It's not even "the first day of the week."
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That brings me to my next question: "does anyone know how to obtain an earlier Greek translation of the New Testament?" I'd be very interested. Rumor has it that earlier Greek translations used the word "Sabbath" in a few places, including John 20:19. Again, it's just a rumor. So I'd like to either verify it, or toss it out of consideration. Any help would be good.
white52black36, I researched this a bit. You can toss it out. It's not a question about early Greek manuscripts. It's a matter of wishful thinking. John 20:19 reads:
So when it was evening on that day, the first of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you." John 20:19.
The Greek word translated week in this verse is “sabbaton.” This word can mean 1a. the seventh day of each week. 1b. a single sabbath, sabbath day. or 2. seven days, a week. There are folks who translate "the first of the week" as "the first of the Sabbaths." Apparently, someone has devised a theory that says that "the first of the Sabbaths" started with Christ's resurrection. Here is why the theory is totally unbelievable. Sabbaton is used in the Greek language to mean week or the Sabbath day and, just like in the English language, words often have multiple meanings and context can determine what is meant. Consider Luke 18:12 for example. "I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess." The word here-translated week is sabbaton. Conceivably, a Pharisee could have meant that he fasts twice on Saturday; he skips breakfast and dinner and only eats lunch. How reasonable is that? It would be even more absurd for a believing Jew in the first century, from reading John 20:19, to imagine right out of the blue that all previous Sabbaths were somehow cancelled—erased out of existence—and that a counter was reset. Admittedly, we can conceive of this theory. The biggest problem with it however, is that this would be an unusual paradigm shift and no hint of it is mentioned explicitly anywhere in Scripture.
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Jewish Christians were the ones criticizing the converts. Paul says, don't let it get to you. In other words, some Christian converts were criticized from other Christians for undervaluing the Sabbath, rather than being criticized from the Jews for worshipping on an entirely different day. Is that it?
That's exactly right. A debate about Sunday sacredness is made conspicuous by its absence.
The only recorded contention about a day of worship in the first century was between Gentile Christians and Jewish Christians. Paul wrote, "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind" (Romans 14:5). Please read all of Romans 14 carefully and see that the point is that Christians should not be judging each other about food and drink and holy days. (cf. Colossians 2:16-17). The argument is clearly between the Gentile view, with no sacred days at all, verses troublesome Jewish Christians who taught that all Christians must keep all the Jewish holy days.
I realize that I didn't answer all your questions in this single response. If the Lord wills it for me to proceed, then I will supplement this response with additional clarifications and continuing commentary at a later date.
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:48 pm Post subject: Thank you.
Your replies were informative.
I think that about answers my questions.
Thanks for spending the time.
Out of curiosity, did you find more info on earlier Greek New Testaments? Do you know how I can get (or look at) one?
I happen to really like Romans 14. I recently served a mission in a foreign country and many times I shared parts from that chapter. I shared it a few more times after coming back, too. Paul's advice would save more fights than we know. It's a shame that so few take it to heart.
Anyways, I think that about does it.
Thanks, again.
When I was researching your question about early Greek New Testament manuscripts, I emailed one person I know who teaches this subject. I mentioned what you heard about John 20:19 and said, "What can you tell me about the manuscripts with the word sabbaths instead of week?" I received an immediate reply. He said he was on a trip and will do some checking and respond when he returns. He said that he has access to a Byzantine Greek text and some other lexicons. He was quick to say that the Greek word for Sabbath sometimes just meant a week.
If you have questions about the oldest New Testament manuscripts, this is the person to ask. He has tons of information about New Testament manuscripts on CD. Perhaps he will make a copy available to you. I will let him know that you're interested.
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 4 Location: cartersville,GA
Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: sabbath
These have been very good explinations on the bible sabbath as the 7th day, also remember that the sabbath was established at creation not at Mt Sinia. The commandment says to remember the Sabbth as if they after 400 yaers in egyption captivity, they forgot about the Laws of God.
Some also say that since the law was done away with that everyday can be kept as the Sabbath. Yet we are told the Sabbath will be kept in Heaven after the second coming.
Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Posts: 7 Location: Where d'ya think?!? (ur brain, duh!)
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:06 pm Post subject:
jabechler mentioned we will be keeping Sabbath in heaven... here is a reference for that:
22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD.
I have another comment on John 20:19 which has not been mentioned yet. But first let's look at what it says:
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"
Not only is this just an ordinary day of the week, as Eugene mentioned, but they were not assembled for worship. They were hiding from the Jewish leaders, afraid that their fate would be like that of Jesus. Jesus had not yet appeared to them after He rose from the dead, and they still didn't understand all that was going on. I think the verse makes this very clear.
Now I'm going away from simply answering your stated questions... here are three verses that explain why we keep the Sabbath as Seventh-Day Adventists (of course there are more for support, but these explain it in a nutshell, so to speak).
Genesis 2:1-3: "2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."God established the Sabbath at Creation, and the seventh day God didn't just call "good", but He rested, blessed the seventh day, and made it holy.
Numbers 23:19, 20: "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? I have received a command to bless; he has blessed, and I cannot change it."No one can change what God blesses.
1 Chronicles 17:27: "Now you have been pleased to bless the house of your servant, that it may continue forever in your sight; for you, O LORD, have blessed it, and it will be blessed forever."Same thing, basically. What God blesses can't be changed.
Many Christians say they keep Sunday as the new Sabbath in honor of Christ's resurrection. Let's think about this... is it necessary? The answer is no. 1) We already have a memorial for the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ--baptism. A person is dipped under the water (burried), signifying death to the old life, and then raised up signifying re-birth into the new life. 2)Something we don't have a memorial for is Creation, which is what the 7th-day Sabbath was given for. So I don't see that (^) as an excuse for keeping Sunday.
One more thing, and then I'm done (I promise ). So many Christians are outraged that the Ten Commandments are being removed from public places and government buildings, etc. What I don't get is, they say the 10 Comm. were "nailed to the cross" and we don't need to keep them any more, yet it's such a big deal... And the 4th commandment says to keep the seventh day holy, which most Christians don't do, even to Sunday (not all Sunday-keepers, but most).
Okay, all done :D _________________ Blah, blah, blah... I'll get a real signature when I have more time.
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