A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
Joined: 29 Aug 2003 Posts: 136 Location: JAMAICA, WEST INDIES
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 7:34 pm Post subject: Theological Questions To Ponder!!
7 QUESTIONS “JWs” AND OTHER ANTI-TRINITARIANS HAVE DIFFICULTY ANSWERING, AND BEING FULLY TRUTHFULL ABOUT IT!!
1. If, as it is claimed, the trinity doctrine was originally invented by the Papacy, and the Papacy was only started after Constantine united the Church and the Roman state in the fourth century, how do they account for Christians over two hundred years before that event teaching basic trinitarianism, even using the already known widely and word, “trinity”, as early as 177 A.D. (e.g. Theophilus of Antioch)?
2. In Rev 22:12-13, Jesus Christ, the one who is "coming quickly", says of himself, " I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end". In Rev 1:17-18 (and Rev. 2:8), Jesus, the one who "became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever", refers to Himself as the first and the last. Rev 21:6, in speaking of God, says, "...I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end ...” God is also referred to as the "first" and the "last" in Isa 44:6 and Isa 48:12. How can this be since by definition of these words there can only be one first and one last? How can there be two “firsts” in terms of time, or eternity, or existence? And when did "from everlasting" begin (a term referring only to the "from ALL eternity" existence of the Persons of the God-kind ONLY)? The very term "eternity" EXCLUDES beginning, or end, limits or boundaries in terms of existence. See John 8:58.
3. Jesus Christ is referred to as "THE Mighty God" in Isa 9:6 ("For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us ... And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, THE Mighty God ..."). Jehovah is referred to as "Mighty God" in Isa 10:20-21. How can this be if there is only one God (1Cor 8:4- 6, Isa 43:10, 44:6) and God declares that He does not share His glory with another (Is. 42:8)?
4. In Jn 20:28, Thomas refers to Jesus in Greek as "Ho kyrios moy kai ho theos moy". This translates literally as "the Lord of me and THE God of me". Why does Jesus, in Jn 20:29, affirm and endorse Thomas for having come to this realization? If Jesus really wasn't the Lord and THE God of Thomas, why didn't Jesus correct him for making either a false assumption or a blasphemous statement?
5. Amos 4:11 says, "'I caused an overthrow among you people, like [not “my”, but…] God's overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah. And you came to be like a log snatched out of [the] burning; but you did not come back to me,' is the utterance of Jehovah." How can Jehovah speaking in this verse refer to another person as God ("... like GOD'S overthrow of Sodom ...")? See all of Gen 18 and Gen 19:24 to discover if one or two persons were being called the LORD or God.
6. If Christ was either literally created, or (for some) literally generated at some point in time by God(or even before earthly time, i.e. during eternity, IF THERE IS SUCH A THING) , and was the symbolic wisdom of God (Prov. 8:1-4, 12, 22-31), then before Jesus would have been created or generated, God would have had to have been without wisdom. How is it possible that God could have ever been without wisdom during eternity?
7. If the Holy Spirit is God's impersonal active force, or (for some) just a “personified” influence how could he DO OR BE ALL THE FOLLOWING: Be referred to as "he" and "him" in Jn 16:7-8 and Jn 16:13-14; Refer to Himself personally in Acts 13:2-4; Bear witness - Jn 15:26; Feel hurt - Isa 63: 10, Eph 4:30; Be blasphemed against - Mk 3:29; Say things - Ezek 3:24, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 21:11, Heb10:15-17, Rev 2:7; Desire - Gal 5:17; Be outraged - Heb 10:29; Search -1Cor 2:10; Comfort - Acts 9:31; Love and be loved - Rom 15:30 ; Be lied to and be God - Acts 5:3-4 while distinct from the Father and the Son (positioned "before His throne")- Rev. 1:4, Is. 48:16 and Ez. 8:1-5? _________________ Derrick Gillespie (First labelled "SDA", THEN, "Pseudo-SDA", and then "Impolite". What label next?)
My problem with the doctrine of the traditonal Trinity is the concept of ONE BEING with THREE PERSONS. Does the Bible teach that the Godhead is ONE BEING with THREE PERSONS?
Joined: 29 Aug 2003 Posts: 136 Location: JAMAICA, WEST INDIES
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 2:56 pm Post subject: ONE BEING, THREE PERSONS, ONE GODHEAD, AND ALL THAT.
LongWay wrote:
My problem with the doctrine of the traditonal Trinity is the concept of ONE BEING with THREE PERSONS. Does the Bible teach that the Godhead is ONE BEING with THREE PERSONS?
Dear "LongWay"'
Sorry for the delayed response. I was rather busy the last few days, and just got around to your question and comments. I do agree with you thjat it is indeed peversion to think like Sabellius, that one individual Person is at the same time three manifestations. However that is not what Trinitarians believeg traditionally, since Sabellius was excommunicated by Trinitarians for teaching modalism. I however believe that the Papal version of the Trinity is still faulty because it does not separate the beings of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit as Mrs. White sets the example us to do:
“You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life--to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of THE THREE HOLIEST *BEINGS IN HEAVEN, who are able to keep you from falling. . . .”
-E.G. White, Manuscript Release, Vol.7, pgs. 267, 268 (Ms 95, 1906, pp. 8-12, 14-17; "Lesson from Romans 15," October 20, 1906.)
I recognize however that the Godhead is a singular unit of all three "beings", as in clearly indicated in Matthew 28:19, and paraphrased by Mrs. White this way:
“Before the disciples shall compass the threshold, there is to be the imprint of the sacred name, baptizing the believers in the name of the Threefold Powers in the Heavenly world [a real place]. The work of salvation is not a small matter, but so vast that the
Highest Authorities are taken hold of …*The Eternal Godhead- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost- IS[not ‘ARE’] involved…”
-E.G. White, Manuscript 45, May 14, 1904-“That They All May Be One”
“When we have accepted Christ and in the NAME [SINGULAR] of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit have pledged ourselves to *SERVE [WORSHIP AND OBEY] [1] God, the Father, [2] Christ and [3] the Holy Spirit- the Three Dignitaries [PLURAL] and Powers of Heaven- pledge Themselves [PLURAL] that every facility shall be given us if we carry out our …vows” [note the ‘parallelism’ in meaning of “serve”]
-E.G. White, Manuscript 85, 1901
Finally, let me say that good scholarship recognizes that the word "being" has several meanings, including, 'any existence' (group or singular), AND 'an individual person', or 'any animalistic creature'. Too many forget that Acts 17:24 uses the expression "OUR BEING" (singular), and not 'our beingS" to mean a group entity. Thus in context, there is one "being' or singular existence of the "Eternal Godhead", the God-kind (or those called "God"), but obviously this Divine unit is a group, just like "Man", or "humanity". I have no problem with a proper explanation of Trinitarinism if the words trinity, being, beings, persons, personalities, three, trio, threefold, Godhead, etc are not used in conflict with the Scriptures. Much of Trinitarianism which preceded the Papacy is O.K. biblically, but not all EXPLANATIONS given by the Papacy. See all my posts on this site, and much of your questions will be addressed candidly. God bless. _________________ Derrick Gillespie (First labelled "SDA", THEN, "Pseudo-SDA", and then "Impolite". What label next?)
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