A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
I spent a few years wandering around South America, and the Pentacostal churches down there have become a perfect illustration, for me, of the dangers of incorporating casual social behavior into church services.
One church from Brazil, called Dios es Amor, has rock music playing as they chant and wave and shout. The "revelator" shout "prophecies" about his congregation over the drums as members of the congregation throw themselves on the ground and writhe around in what they call the "Spirit." One particular woman was taken over by an intense experience that I hesitate to describe in this atmosphere (if you know what I mean). I was immediately reminded of the Nicolaitans and other apostate groups that seduced the early Christians away from the pure and simple doctrine of Christ. Reverence is hard to find in many churches these days, and clapping is one of the things that distracts us from what our main focus should be on the Sabbath - worshiping the Lord.
I was in a Jehovah's Witness meeting once in a town in Uruguay called Rocha; the discourse was taking a long time and I actually nodded off (he was ridiculously boring). I was rudely awoken by a thundering applause that erupted when the orator finished his talk. People where shouting, whistling and cheering. I looked at the guys face as he sat down, and he looked like he had just won an oscar. I was waiting for the high five. I realized how much that does actually draw attention away from the Lord and puts it on the person. He came across as extremely arrogant after his sermon.
My church has a policy that there be no clapping or cheering inside the chapel. It draws from our relationship with the Lord. I believe silence also helps the children distinguish between the casualness of the world, and the reverence we should show inside the chapels.
Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:53 am Post subject: Clapping in church
The last time I checked JOY is one of the fruits of the Spirit. I also recall a text that says something like this " God is a spirit, those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth". I know that the SDA church believes that they have the truth, and strongly promotes Daniel and Revelation to bring out this "truth". After all the SDA church is the "true" church. Along with JOY, most SDA's don't have a clue what the "Truth" is. Jesus himself said He was the "Way, the TRUTH, and the Life". He said if you want to get to the Father you have to go through Him. I know that sounds way too simple. Only the pharisees insist on making the Gospel complicated, and that's why you have no JOY. Isn't it amazing that when you're a child in Sabbath school that you are taught songs like "if you're happy and you know it.......". But, when you get older someone tells you that you can't be happy in church anymore. SDA's pride themselves on being Bible students, I've got Good News for you, there is more books in the Bible besides Daniel and Revelation. Have you not read Psalms 47:1 where it commands the people to "clap and shout". What about Psalms 63:4 where the writer says they will lift up their hands. How about Psalms 134:2 "Lift up your hands in the SANCTUARY, and bless the Lord". What about the day that Jesus rode into town on palm sunday, and the church leaders were telling him to tell the children to shut up. He said if He made them shut up that the rocks would praise Him. Brothers and sisters, Ellen White didn't shed any blood for you, so she is not your savior, only Jesus can save! There is no place in Heaven for christians without Joy. You have been taught wrong. Sitting in church like a person who just ate a bowl of lemons is not reverant. There can be no reverance without God's Joy. Don't let satan still your God given Joy. Sour faces and pharisees don't bring anyone to Christ. Christ says they go around the world to make one follower, and when they do, they make him twice the child of hell as themselves. What does the way you were raised have to do with your salvation, I was raised in the SDA schools, and church, but I was taught wrong. You people swallow a camel, and strain at a gnat. Please for your sake, find Joy.
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:42 pm Post subject: Loving those in error
mike wrote:
Along with JOY, most SDA's don't have a clue what the "Truth" is.
If you think there's a visible body that has Joy and Truth, please tell us about it in our new light forum (Mars Hill). I sure would like to receive all the new light that's available.
mike wrote:
Only the pharisees insist on making the Gospel complicated, and that's why you have no JOY.
But I do have JOY and I rejoice in the gospel. Does it bring joy to you to utter sweeping condemnation? What do you think of the psalm that says, "I will extol the LORD at all times; his praise will always be on my lips" (Psalm 34:1).
mike wrote:
Isn't it amazing that when you're a child in Sabbath school that you are taught songs like "if you're happy and you know it.......". But, when you get older someone tells you that you can't be happy in church anymore.
Yes. That is very amazing. I've been told repeatedly by one Adventist pastor that I am "too animated" :-) and that that justifies banning me from attending the Richardson Seventh-day Adventist church, along with threats of arrest if I failed to comply, because being "too animated" is an offense to the head elder of that church.
mike wrote:
SDA's pride themselves on being Bible students, I've got Good News for you, there is more books in the Bible besides Daniel and Revelation.
That's not a very stunning revelation.
mike wrote:
Have you not read Psalms 47:1 where it commands the people to "clap and shout".
Have you not read the first page of this thread where I pointed out the Hebrew parallelism between shouting and singing? Not being welcome in any local SDA church, I've attended a messianic fellowship several times. There are things I like about their worship services. They have Davidic dancing and music that is somewhat happy and skillful but even they don't clap with every song.
mike wrote:
What about Psalms 63:4 where the writer says they will lift up their hands. How about Psalms 134:2 "Lift up your hands in the SANCTUARY, and bless the Lord".
If lifting hands is a sign of being happy, then I suppose that very few in my Christian Jewish fellowship are in that state.
mike wrote:
What about the day that Jesus rode into town on palm sunday, and the church leaders were telling him to tell the children to shut up. He said if He made them shut up that the rocks would praise Him.
It sounds like you've turned happiness into a requirement for salvation. Jesus was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief (Isaiah 53:3). The Apostle Paul said, "I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead" (Philippians 3:10-11).
mike wrote:
Brothers and sisters, Ellen White didn't shed any blood for you, so she is not your savior.
Now you're adding condemnation that is even more preposterous with outrageous hyperbole?
mike wrote:
There is no place in Heaven for christians without Joy.
Jeremiah is frequently called the weeping prophet. Read his own testimony about his miserable life. Is he excluded from heaven?
mike wrote:
You have been taught wrong. Sitting in church like a person who just ate a bowl of lemons is not reverant. There can be no reverance without God's Joy. Don't let satan still your God given Joy. Sour faces and pharisees don't bring anyone to Christ. Christ says they go around the world to make one follower, and when they do, they make him twice the child of hell as themselves. What does the way you were raised have to do with your salvation, I was raised in the SDA schools, and church, but I was taught wrong. You people swallow a camel, and strain at a gnat. Please for your sake, find Joy.
Your advice isn't Christian or helpful. The epistle to the Hebrews doesn't counsel believers to get happy. It kindly urges them:
But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.
For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one.
Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE,
HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. Hebrews 10:32-39.
When I see your deeds and words and life harmonize with the "Way, the TRUTH, and the Life," then it will be easy to accept your testimony.
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