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Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 11:11 pm Post subject: Proverb 8:22-31
Ellen White applied Proverbs 8:22-31 to Christ.
Was Ellen White wrong?
Eugene,
I get concerned when people say they can pick and choose what is inspired in the writings of Ellen White and what is not. My experience is that when people don't like what she has to say, they say it was not inspired and that she was speaking from what someone else had told her. If there were an error I believe she would correct it. I also believe that she would not do it in a "round about" way. She did say if there seemed to be a contradiction between her writings and the Bible, choose the Bible. She also said if there seemed to be a contradiction between the first 50 years of teaching in the Adventist Church and the subsequent years, choose the first 50 years. These things were said because there were those who tried to pervert her writings to advance their false ideas about God.
You say that Ellen White was wrong in applying Proverbs 8:22-31 to Christ, then I would like to see where she said she was wrong about that.
I never said that Ellen White was wrong in applying Proverbs 8:22-31 to Christ. You are misconstruing my personal email. There could be several explanations for Ellen White’s use of Proverbs 8 being different than its proper grammatical-contextual meaning. Why couldn’t Ellen White be simply using the language of Scripture? The book of Revelation adapts much from the apocryphal book of Enoch yet there are excellent reasons for not enforcing a theological reconciliation between both books.
So, you are saying that Ellen White was correct in using Proverbs 8:22-31 and applying it to Christ.
There is nothing wrong or in error with Jesus being the Son of God from eternity. It does not make Jesus a lesser being than His Father. On the contrary it makes Him equal with His Father.
Quote:
"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." John 5:18
Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 12:02 am Post subject: Do yourself a favor
Steve,
We’ve been through this before. You believe that Christ came into being through a birth process out of God in the infinite past. If your view has any obvious Biblical support, why don’t you do something similar to what I’ve done on the topic of the Godhead? Assemble all the Biblical texts that speak for themselves on the topic and add indisputable headings only.
I appreciate your suggestion. I think it is a good idea and I will try to put it all together.
I am not trying to define the process. I have not used the term "birth process". When one says "birth process" that usually has a specific connotation. The Bible does not elaborate because this is far beyond human understanding. I do however, believe that Trinitarianism has sought to define God beyond what the Bible says.
Solomon, as one of his literary ways of teaching, personifies wisdom as a woman, whom we should choose to hear and follow rather than the strange woman. Both women, wisdom and folly, are out in the streets calling and inviting men. One woman entices into sin and destruction, the other (wisdom) leads to honour, righteousness, justice and well being. Each reader must make a choice which woman he will follow and befriend.
Personification: “is the representation of an abstraction as a person or by human form, (kindness reached out her gentle hands and melted his heart) OR personification can mean the embodiment of an abstraction (a man who personified kindness).” (See Webster’s dictionary)
Wisdom is being personified all through the book of Proverbs and so closely resembles a Divine Person that many have said that wisdom is not just an attribute of God but literally IS God, or the Son of God, or another God proceeding from the God.
Yet we need to understand that WISDOM here is an attribute of God, it is being personified as a woman, not a man. If this proverb is describing the divine nature of Jesus in eternity, as the anti-Trinitarian teachers say, then the divine nature of Jesus is female! Which is NOT true.
Yet, on the other hand, Christ DOES personify WISDOM in the highest, completest sense, but that does not mean the attribute is literally Christ.
Christ is the personification of all the attributes of God.
Christ is the wisdom of God, (1 Cor. 1:24)
Christ is the power of God (1 Cor. 1:24)
Christ is the righteousness of God (1 Cor. 1:30)
Christ is the truth of God, (John 14:6)
Christ is the love of God. (Romans 8:39)
Christ is mercy and goodness and justice.
Christ is the personification of all the attributes of God.
Yet, the deduction that since Christ is the personification of WISDOM, (as well as all the other attributes of God) that this means Proverbs is defining Christ’s origin before the incarnation, rather than the attribute of wisdom, is a faulty deduction.
Proverbs personifies the attribute of WISDOM as a woman.
It is correct to say that Christ is the personification of WISDOM, (as well as all the other attributes of God)
But to say WISDOM is literally CHRIST, is not correct.
For instance, was Christ only a spectator at creation?
Proverbs 8 says that when God prepared the heavens, Wisdom was there.
When God put the water systems in place, Wisdom was there.
The creation of all things shows the wonderful wisdom of God.
God delights in wisdom and understanding, truth and uprighteness.
We know from scripture that Christ was not just a spectator at Creation, for John tells us that:
The Word [Jesus] was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)
It was by creating that God “brought forth” His wisdom. We often think of creation only in relationship with this world. But all things were created by God. The heavenly hosts, the angels, other worlds were already created before the creation of this earth. The war in heaven between Satan and Christ took place before the creation of this world. The justice and wisdom of God was questioned before the creation of this world. God’s wisdom was on trial. But He would bring forth His wisdom and present “her” in contrast to the “adulterous” woman who despises the wisdom of God and personates “folly”.
(Proverbs 1:7, 9:10)"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" .
God is the source of all wisdom. All wisdom begins with a reverence for God. Reverence for the Lord includes a deep respect for the power of God and a sober recognition of the consequences of trying to violate the laws which he has ordained.
Wisdom speaks and says, “When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth.” (Proverbs 8:24, 25)
As God planned His creative works, wisdom was brought forth in all His plans. Everything followed laws. When God assigned to the sea its limits, so that the waters might not transgress his command, wisdom was at His side. The universe is under unvarying moral and physical laws. It is this fact that gives us true freedom and security. His will and law are built on wisdom.
Prov. 3.19-20 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew.
Pr. 8:27-29 When He prepared the heavens, I was there: when He set a compass upon the face of the depth: When He established the clouds above: when He strengthened the fountains of the deep: When He gave to the sea His decree, that the waters should not pass His commandment: when He appointed the foundations of the earth.
All creation shows the WISDOM of God. All creation shows the justice and rightness of his ways and laws.
In contrast to Lady WISDOM, Proverbs 8 speaks of Lady Folly, the adulterous woman, who has no regard for moral law and is out seducing men into immorality which leads to destruction.
These two women represent the battle over people’s minds and hearts.
The first, the adulterous woman, represents the ways and character of Satan, who is out seducing them with “forbidden pleasures” but who leads them as a hunter “leads a deer into trap and shots him with arrows” and causes their destruction.
proverbs5:3-5 For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil
But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.
Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
The second, Lady Wisdom, represents the ways and character of God, who is calling people to walk in the way of God’s laws which are wisdom and will bring a high quality of life both in temporal and eternal aspects.
Pr. 4.11 I have taught thee in the way of wisdom; I have led thee in right paths.
8.19-20 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
The thing we need to understand is that this wisdom is not the gnosis or esoteric knowledge of the Christianized/Greek Platonic reasoning ability, who used this passage to build their Gnostic beliefs as well as their gnostic interpretations about Christ. No, the WISDOM here in Proverbs is a wisdom that cannot exist apart from God, but is a reflection of who He is, what His character is like.
Pr. 23.4 Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom.
Isaiah 47:10-11 Your wisdom and your knowledge, it has perverted you; and you have said in your heart, I AM, and none else beside me. Therefore shall evil come upon thee; and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly
Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: 9.24 But let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, says the LORD. .
So one thing is clear, TRUE WISDOM belongs only to God, it is His character, it comes from HIM, “brought forth” and revealed to the created. It is folly to define ones own ways apart from God.
Wisdom has been defined as the Holy Spirit:
“the spirit of wisdom,” (Ex. 28:3, 31:3 , 35:31“I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge”
1 Cor. 2:13 The Holy Ghost teaches [wisdom]; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Of Christ it is written:
Is. 11.2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Wisdom has been defined as God’s law.
Psalms 37.30-31 The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom, and his tongue talks of judgment. The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
Ps. 111.10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments.
Pr. 7.2-5 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.
Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine heart.
Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman:
That they may keep thee from the strange woman.
Job 28.28 Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.
Wisdom is the tree of life, in contrast to the tree of knowledge of good and evil:
Pr. 3.13 Happy is the man that finds wisdom, and the man that gets understanding.
3.18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retains her.
God is the source of all WISDOM and knowledge. Thus God personifies WISDOM.
Christ personifies WISDOM,
the Holy Spirit personifies WISDOM
God‘s law is the way of WISDOM
Romans 11.33-34 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord?
Does 1 Corinthians 1:24 prove that Christ is speaking in Proverbs 8 and that this proves Christ was “born” and had a beginning before this world was created?
That’s what the a group of anti-Trinitarians say:
They write:
Quote:
In the first verse of Proverbs 8 it says that Wisdom is speaking. Who is Wisdom? In verse 8 it tells us that He has a mouth, and speaks.
“But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:24) “But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.” (1 Corinthians 1:30) Christ is spoken of as “the Wisdom of God” and is speaking in Proverbs chapter 8 under the symbol of Wisdom.
He said, “When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth.” (Proverbs 8:24, 25) Also in another version—The 1965 Bible in Basic English: “When there was no deep I was given birth, when there were no fountains flowing with water. Before the mountains were put in their places, before the hills was my birth.”
Look again at the first verses in Proverbs 8 and see that WISDOM is personified as a SHE, not a HE. It says she has a voice, and calls, and instructs. She is knowledge and has strength.
So already we see the anti- Trinitarians have “switched” the gender, and refuse to see that wisdom is personified as a woman.
Proverbs interchanges wisdom as a "she" and a "thing".
Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her. Prov. 4:7-8
Now lets look at 1 Corinthians.
It is interesting that Paul is doing the same thing as the author of Proverbs. He is contrasting the WISDOM of God with the FOLLY of the world.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 1 Cor.1: 18-20
So Paul is saying the world is too wise in their own eyes to believe in God’s wisdom and God’s plan of salvation. To them the story of redemption is foolishness.
But now notice that Paul uses metaphors to describe Christ:
To some Christ and His sacrifice is A STUMBLING BLOCK.
To others Christ and His sacrifice is FOOLISHNESS.
But to the believers Christ is the WISDOM AND POWER OF GOD.
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1 Cor. 1.23-25
Paul’s point here is to emphasis the essential importance of Christ’s death upon the cross in the whole scheme of redemption. The cross is unquestionably the essential component . It is the POWER of God unto salvation. (vs. 18) For those perishing the cross is foolishness, YET it is the ONLY power that can save. Paul is stressing the point that even the WISDOM of the world’s WISEST philosophers and scholars is foolishness when it comes to the real issues of life.
Now of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 1 Cor. 1.30-31
Are we desiring “wisdom” actual wisdom? Can we understand the wisdom of God in the great sacrifice upon the cross? To those who accept Christ, His sacrifice is understood as wisdom, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption. Any spiritual wisdom and understanding of the great plan of salvation in Christ, which is made known to man, is given to them by God.
So again we see WISDOM is wisdom, and true WISDOM is centered totally in God.
Paul was not linking back to Proverbs in any attempt to define Christ’s origins as literal “born” before the earth was created.
In fact in the following verse Paul explains what was “brought forth” before the world was created.
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 1 Cor. 2.7
Yes, once again the plan of redemption through Christ is the “Wisdom of God”. And that plan was put in place “ordained before the world”.
Forasmuch as ye know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things...But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you. 1 Peter 1.18-20
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13.8
The plan of salvation was conceived and brought forth before creation was begun. The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth; for Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8);
Before Creation was begun, God wrestled with the question with foreknowledge of the “rebellion” of the created against HIM. Would He create?
This is the WISDOM of God, that before the world was created, Christ became surety for the human race.
The second person in the Godhead, before the creation began, became “the LAMB OF GOD SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
It is true that wisdom in the Hebrew is feminine. But in languages that have gender specific words it does not matter if the person being referred to is male or female. For example in Spanish the word for person is la persona. This is a feminine word but it can refer to a man or woman. The same is true of the word victim (la victima). If a man is hit by a car he is still la victima.
Also, wisdom in the Greek is feminine. But in the New Testament Jesus is called "the wisdom of God" (1Cor. 1:24) and is "made unto us wisdom" (1Cor. 1:30). Does this make Jesus female? No. In these types of languages one cannot always use the gender of the word to define the person as male or female. Also the pronouns used must agree with the noun. For example: El teléfono, lo tengo (literally, the telephone, I have him). Therefore, based on the use of the pronouns alone one also cannot say if the object is a person or thing.
Another interesting thing is that the use of wisdom in Chapter 8 of Proverbs is different than in the rest of the book of Proverbs. (Read and compare)
Then, there is the fact that Ellen White points out that this is the Son of God speaking of Himself. (Patriarchs and Prophets p. 34)
Are you saying that Ellen White was wrong in her application of this to Christ?
Then, there is the fact that Ellen White points out that this is the Son of God speaking of Himself. (Patriarchs and Prophets p. 34)
I suppose you could also claim Christ was created on the first day of creation from the text--
"And God said, "Let their be light" Gen.
And then in John 8:12 Jesus proclaims "I am the Light of the World".
And of course EGW also says that CHRIST is the light of the world.
But is this reasoning correct? Of course not! Christ was NOT CREATED-- He is the creator!
In PP 34 we see EGW drawing from many verses to describe CHRIST, one of them was from Proverbs.
However, in no wise does she relate any of these verses to mean there was a time when CHRIST was not --- no! Quite the opposite.
Quote:
PP.034.001
The Sovereign of the universe was not alone in His work of beneficence. He had an associate--a co-worker who could appreciate His purposes, and could share His joy in giving happiness to created beings. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:1, 2. Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father--one in nature, in character, in purpose--the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. "His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6. His "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2. And the Son of God declares concerning Himself: "The Lord possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from everlasting. . . . When He appointed the foundations of the earth: then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him." Proverbs 8:22-30.
PP.034.002
The Father wrought by His Son in the creation of all heavenly beings. "By Him were all things created, . . . whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him." Colossians 1:16. Angels are God's ministers, radiant with the light ever flowing from His presence and speeding on rapid wing to execute His will. But the Son, the anointed of God, the "express image of His person," "the brightness of His glory," "upholding all things by the word of His power," holds supremacy over them all. Hebrews 1:3. "A glorious high throne from the beginning," was the place of His sanctuary (Jeremiah 17:12); "a scepter of righteousness," the scepter of His kingdom. Hebrews 1:8. "Honor and majesty are before Him: strength and beauty are in His sanctuary." Psalm 96:6. Mercy and truth go before His face. Psalm 89:14.
All those texts are speaking of Christ.
Yet Psalms 96 is speaking of JEHOVAH
For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised, he is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens, Honour and majesty are before; strength and beauty are in his sanctuary. Give unto the LORD the glory due his name;
Psalms 89 is speaking of JEHOVAH GOD.
God is greatly to be feared...O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee?...The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine; as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them,,,Justice and judgment are the habitation of they throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
Obviously EGW is applying all those texts to Christ, but those texts are speaking of JEHOVAH GOD. They are speaking of the only true God.
How quickly will the people who say the Father alone is the Only True God and that Christ is not the true God, jump to disclaim EGW's use of these texts that identify CHRIST AS JEHOVAH GOD.
I suppose you could also claim Christ was created on the first day of creation from the text--
"And God said, "Let their be light" Gen.
And then in John 8:12 Jesus proclaims "I am the Light of the World".
This is not true. I have never made this claim that you are here presenting. I do not believe any such teaching. JESUS IS NOT A CREATED BEING.
When you say this it suggest that you misunderstand what I am saying. I have noticed that those who hold the Trinitarian view make the assumption that anyone who does not hold the Trinitarian view believes that Jesus was a created being and that simply just is not true. You do not have to agree but you should at least try to understand what is being said, so you will know what you are arguing against.
Understanding the distinction between the Father and the Son does not make the Son a lesser being. The declaration of Peter
Quote:
," Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Matt. 16:16
is what Jesus said was to be the foundation of His church,
Quote:
"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. " Matt. 16:17,18
and again in 1John 5,
Quote:
"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"
Jesus is not a created being. He is the Son of the living God.
Actually I think you did not read, nor did you try to understand what I wrote.
I did not say that YOU were teaching that Christ was created on the first day when God said "Let there be light" , I simply drew a parallel between your use of Pr. 8 where wisdom is personified and your point which you implied, that this reference in Pr. 8 shows Christ had a beginning--
I then simply showed that the same type of logic could be used with the "light".
Of course Christ was not created.
But I also believe Christ was the Son of God from all eternity-- without beginning (Heb. 7:3)
The type of logic that claims Christ had a beginning, I see as saying that Christ was in some manner "created" albeit, "procreated" "generated" or in some fashioned "formed" by God the Father. That is-- I'm pretty sure you are saying there was a time when Christ was not and God "produced" Him in some "mysterious" way.--
By the way others have used the "light" argument to deny that Christ is eternal without beginning.
I also find it interesting that you ignore all the other texts that EGW uses in the same passage in which she quotes Pr. 8.
I also find it interesting that you ignore all the other texts that EGW uses in the same passage in which she quotes Pr. 8.
In answer to this I should say that I have not ignored these other texts. The reason that I have not discussed them is that I agree with you on these. I have not problem with the eternity of Christ. I have no problem with Jesus being equal with the Father. I have no problem with the eternal Godhead of Christ. To me it all fits very well with Christ being the eternal Son of God.
But, YOU want to say that this text (Proverbs 8:22-30) does NOT refer to Christ, when clearly it does as do the others (Isa. 9:6; Micah 5:2; John 1;1,2). This is why my focus is on this text. Because you don't understand how it could be, does not alter the truth of the matter. Truth is truth, in fact, whether or not one believes it.
So, rather than to deny that this text refers to Christ, we should seek to find out how fits with the other texts.
Hebrews 7:3--is this referring to Melchisedec as not being human? (i.e. not being born nor ever dying, not having parents)
No, this text is pointing out the similarities between the ministry of Melchisedec and Christ in relation to the priesthood as established during the time of Moses. Since the Law of Moses had not been established during Melchisedec's day, Christ ministry, being separate from that of the Law, was in fact similar to Melchisedec's. (verse 11)
Under the Law one had to be able to trace his lineage back to Aaron, if not he was said to be without father or mother ("without father, without mother, without pedigree" Heb. 7:3 margin) This did not mean that they had no ancestors, but that the record of them was not preserved .
So are you then saying that Christ was the Son of God from all eternity? That there NEVER WAS A TIME in all eternity when Christ was not there?
That HE is the ONE GOD Jehovah revealed in the Old Testament?
Because if that's what you are saying, then you are not agreeing with some others that seem to be supporting you--those who are saying that at some point Christ was not there, and that somehow the Father "brought Him forth", and that was His beginning?
As to Melechezedic-- it seems you are adding an awful lot to those texts that is not in the Bible.
The Bible makes it plain that Melchizedek is GREATER than Abraham.
What was lacking in the earthly priests?
1. One point against them was that they kept DYING. (7:8,23)
2. The second point against them was that they were sinners.(7:27,28)
But Christ was after a different ORDER--
the order of Melchizedek--
Melchizedek:
1. Was without father or mother, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, a priest continually (7:3)
The "order of Melchizedek operated "according to the power of an endless life." (7:14)
Christ is a priest FOREVER, after the order of Melchizedek. (7;21)
One of the chief focuses in Hebrews between Christ's priesthood and the earthly priesthood was over this very issue. (NO BEGINNING OF DAYS NOR END OF LIFE)
How can people so lightly sweep that text away as if it were of no significance?
2. Melchizedek is known as "king of righteousness" "King of peace". (7:2)
Can any human be called "king of righteousness" "king of peace"?
---------------------------
As to Proverbs--
did I say it didn't apply to Christ?
Many things in the Bible apply to Christ --
He is wisdom, He is the light, He is the rock, He is the Lamb, He is the good Shepherd-- These are all metaphors to help us understand the attributes of Christ.
It's only when people get things backwards and start saying
wisdom is Christ, light is Christ, rocks are Christ, lambs are Christ etc. that I have a problem.
When God showed HIS WISDOM in creation, does not mean that Christ was then "brought into existance".
So are you then saying that Christ was the Son of God from all eternity? That there NEVER WAS A TIME in all eternity when Christ was not there?
There is no such thing as time in eternity (not trying to play word games, just trying to stay on the same page with you). These to terms are mutually exclusive. But, based on the wording of your question I would have to say that there NEVER was a "time" in all eternity when Christ was not there.
But, how does this harmonize with the Scripture in question? Proverbs 8:22-30 is applied to Christ and this text says that He was "brought forth". This is not my terminology and if God does not further reveal HOW this took place I cannot go any further. I can only say that based on the Scripture it took place.
Maybe we could throw this one out as a spurious text. But, then Ellen White brings us back to it.
So, the first thing is to acknowledge that this text is referring to Christ. The next thing is to understand what is meant by the terminology used in the text and how it relates to the rest of the Bible.
Are you saying that Melchisedec never died? We have record in the Bible of two individuals that were translated (Enoch and Elijah). We also have Moses who was raised from the dead and taken to Heaven. There is no such evidence of either translation or resurrection of Melchisedec. The SDA Bible Commentary on this text (Heb. 7:4) also supports my view.
Quote:
"The author may simply mean that there is no record of who Melchisedec's father and mother were....No one could serve as priest unless he belonged to the family of Aaron of the tribe of Levi, and this he must be able to prove without any doubt whatever....Beginning of days. That is, there is no record of his birth , or of his death, as indicated by the phrase "nor end of life." SDA Bible Commentary vol. 7 p 439,440
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