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A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum
In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of
Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
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Light Fox
fanatical cultist
Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 15
Location: Oklahoma
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 Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Hello :)
<chuckles.> "Circuitness obfuscation?" Please read my last post and tell me just what parts can be classified as either of those, or really anything less then plain, straight language. :)
Also, I do not mean to call attention to your presentation instead of scripture, and I will get into scripture in just a moment, but I do beleive it needs be pointed out that you basically just jumped on the first bandwagon to try and accuse me, without any evidence of any of your own claims. That does not give the impression of earnest truth-seeking.
Now, on to scripture. Please explain, in explicit detail, your statement of the following being illigetimately conceived. :)
I am not aware of "Force" or "Driven" being the same as "Call." To forewarn, if you wish to discredit something you really do need to address it in order to do so, otherwise it may tend to look dishonest. :) The very word for "Church" means "Gathering of the called out." I would very much like to know, sir, how you can reconcile this with your wording in the last post; specifically, that they were driven out, and more specifically, your slash at my methods of deduction for "assuming," if such a word can be used, that "Gathering of the called out" means the people were, well, called out.
You then stated what I referred to partially above, and what does need to be reconciled with the very word for 'Church,' that "The called out ones were driven out by persection."
A reference, please? :) Acts 2 has the believers of one accord, in the Apostle's doctrine (Not Judaism, who rejected Christ), breaking bread *together*, and "of one mind." If there is any way to *possibly* say that they were in Judaism, please make it known for our edification.
You then proceeded to accuse that we do not speak for the Spirit. I believe one verse answers this well enough. :)
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17)
The Spirit and the Bride do not say "wait," sir. Yes, we do speak for the Spirit, and if you can show otherwise, please do.
You then said that we were unjustified to say that a call out of Israel without a specific verse is unjustifiable. Are you a Jew? :) A Catholic then, perhaps. A Bapist, or other denomination?
I am sorry but there are so many areas that I need to reply to, on viritually every one of your statements, possibly excluding "Dear Dzien."
To continue on your claim of being unjustified, I would like your explanation of, really, every verse I have listed up until now. :) Explain Acts 3:36-38 to begin with, I suppose. Then the verses in Acts that Dzien used, and that I replied to with simply quoting them above. Then please explain 2 Corinthians 6:14-18.
Jews did not believe in Christ, and 2 Corinthians should very clearly give the "call out" message you find lacking in scripture; along with all of the other verses, the Greek word "Ekklesia," and the fact that you are not a Jew... In short, if you wish to discredit what I am saying, please do that, and not simply attempt to accuse me of something with no evidence nor reply to anything I set forth. Anyone can call anyone wrong, what matters is who can prove it. You are yet to even make a "stab" at doing so. :)
You then told me that I should admit the message is not biblical. Show me it isn't and I will. :) You told me that I was like Joseph Smith for one day deciding all other churches were wrong, and making his own.
Excuse my bluntness, but are you an Adventist saying that? :) If so, can you please, then, justify the early Adventists "up and deciding one day" that all other churches were wrong for breaking the commandments, and making their own?
Please explain to me, as you are not a Jew, what exactly you are doing outside of Judaism. Also please explain to me, why you are not a Catholic, why you are not a Lutheran, and, in short, why you believe those organizations were unchurched. Then please, proceed to explain why the founders of the Seventh-Day Adventist church which you say is the true church still, were either 100% off base or outright lying when all of them from Ellen White to the Sabbath School quarterlies taught the exact same thing you are accusing me of error on currently; that being the unchurching and calling out of Israel.
There is just so much left undone on your part, sir, and I do not mean to appear angry, but if you are going to offer questions, and much more so give such bold statements as you have done, please, for the sake of progress and common honesty, back them up with an explanation, a scripture, anything, really. At the very least you owe an explanation of why you felt my statements were what you said they were, instead of saying "What further need have we of witnesses? We have heard His blasphemy for ourselves." with no explanation of why I was wrong, in your eyes.
Hoping to hear from you soon, and as always, awaiting more (valid) questions and comments. :)
Yahweh bless
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- Lucan "Luke" Chartier |
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PastorChick
fanatical cultist
Joined: 16 Dec 2003
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:42 pm Post subject: What is the Creation 7th Day Adventist Church? |
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Eugene,
Your memory fails you. If you have specific objection to the Apostle, take it up by gospel order as instructed by the Master.
I have monitored this thread recently and find it quite saddening that false accusations and representations are the mass of which you herald against Walter McGill and the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church.
Bring your scripture to the front and explain it by the Spirit of the Most High. Otherwise, forever hold your peace.
Your methods (i.e., "slashes") are typical of "self-sent messengers." I forgive you in advance, however, since the servant is no greater than his Master.
To the Remnant of this thread (those seeking the truth about the CSDA Movement in question):
There are presently thousands around the world embracing Bible truth and in the Spirit of unity with CSDAs in the United States. But, make no mistake, YAHWEH has never relied on "numbers" to identify His people.
If one were raised from the dead, few would believe-- and several have been raised. I weep almost daily for the unbelief of "captive Israel;" yet, I command none to "come out" of anything, for *my* words are powerless. Unless my Father draw them, they shall never know "the truth as it is in YAHshua."
As delivered to our deceased and beloved Ellen, YAH has told me, "Your work is appointed you of God. Many will not hear you, for they refused to hear the Great Teacher; many will not be corrected, for their ways are right in their own eyes. Yet bear to them the reproofs and warnings I shall give you, whether they will hear or forbear."
I pray that you will "study to show yourself approved" and read what the Spirit has recorded at http://csda.us/, http://CreationSDA.org/Kherev/, and http://binaryangel.net/;
I am open you your honest inquiry as a result of your study.
Your devoted servant,
Pastor "Chick"
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Creation Seventh Day Adventist-- apostle |
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Eugene Shubert
the new William Miller
Joined: 06 Apr 2002
Posts: 1073
Location: Richardson Texas
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Walter McGill wrote: |
| If you have specific objection to the Apostle, take it up by gospel order as instructed by the Master. |
“I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.” 2 Corinthians 11:12-13.
I test those who call themselves apostles, and are not, and I declare them to be false.
| Walter McGill wrote: |
| There are presently thousands around the world ... in the Spirit of unity with CSDAs in the United States. |
Evidence suggests that you are more arrogant than factual and that I have been extraordinarily generous. Light Fox wrote, “We have total, at the moment, 4 baptized members in the U.S, among others who profess but have not yet been / been able to be baptized.” I estimated 12 members total.
Your arrogance, as great as it is, in suggesting that you are God’s chosen apostle of some great church, and duly qualified to call the Adventist church Babylon, is evident to all. And on what do you base your arrogance? You dismiss the efforts, years and events between Peter’s humble, loving, hope-filled sermon of Acts 3:11—4:4 for those who crucified Jesus, up to the time Paul declared that “the wrath of God has come upon [the Jews] to the utmost” (1 Thessalonians 2:14-16). There is a progression there but you can’t see it! You interpret Acts 3:11—4:4 as saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. ... Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues.” (Revelation 18:1-4). You also cheapen the fact that Martin Luther tried to reform his church, even while thinking that the pope was antichrist:
As Luther compared the Holy Oracles with the papal decrees and constitutions, he was filled with wonder. “I am reading,” he wrote, “the decrees of the pontiffs, and . . . I do not know whether the pope is antichrist himself, or his apostle, so greatly is Christ misrepresented and crucified in them.” Yet at this time Luther was still a supporter of the Roman Church, and had no thought that he would ever separate from her communion. —The Great Controversy, p. 139.
As the record of history clearly shows, all true Reformers were driven out of their former churches:
"For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last." —1 Thessalonians 2:14-16. NIV.
In Ellen White’s retelling of the history of the Millerites, you should recall that William Miller sought to benefit everyone and that his message, initially, was well-received by all churches:
In preaching the doctrine of the second advent, William Miller and his associates had labored with the sole purpose of arousing men to a preparation for the judgment. They had sought to awaken professors of religion to the true hope of the church and to their need of a deeper Christian experience, and they labored also to awaken the unconverted to the duty of immediate repentance and conversion to God. "They made no attempt to convert men to a sect or party in religion. Hence they labored among all parties and sects, without interfering with their organization or discipline."
"In all my labors," said Miller, "I never had the desire or thought to establish any separate interest from that of existing denominations, or to benefit one at the expense of another. I thought to benefit all. ... My whole object was a desire to convert souls to God, to notify the world of a coming judgment, and to induce my fellow men to make that preparation of heart which will enable them to meet their God in peace. The great majority of those who were converted under my labors united with the various existing churches." —The Great Controversy, p. 375.
Keep reading. The church of “William Miller” was forced upon “the Millerites” by those who opposed Miller’s message:
As his work tended to build up the churches, it was for a time regarded with favor. But as ministers and religious leaders decided against the advent doctrine and desired to suppress all agitation of the subject, they not only opposed it from the pulpit, but denied their members the privilege of attending preaching upon the second advent, or even of speaking of their hope in the social meetings of the church. Thus the believers found themselves in a position of great trial and perplexity. They loved their churches and were loath to separate from them; but as they saw the testimony of God's word suppressed and their right to investigate the prophecies denied they felt that loyalty to God forbade them to submit. Those who sought to shut out the testimony of God's word they could not regard as constituting the church of Christ, "the pillar and ground of the truth." Hence they felt themselves justified in separating from their former connection. In the summer of 1844 about fifty thousand withdrew from the churches. —The Great Controversy, p. 376.
The similarities between the first Christians, Protestants and Millerites, in their struggle with their antecedent church/churches, are easy to see. The Spirit of the prayer of Christ was manifest (John 17). CSDA follows the self-centered model, nothing Biblical or truly Protestant. You seek to benefit yourself. Your imagined superiority is your first concern. You are so judgmental and confident of your discernment that you declare every other church unreformable. You don’t even think the unreformability of the churches should be demonstrated with superior proof, like the evidence in the book of Acts, in the heroics of Luther or in the true Christian spirit of William Miller.
You are a cowardly false apostle. |
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