A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2002 2:06 am Post subject: Is it morally right to speak the truth to 7th-day Adventists
Is it morally right to speak the truth to Seventh-day Adventists?
This question is more complex than it seems. What if the truth is something that challenges the collective self-righteousness of SDAs, just like what their forefather’s couldn’t tolerate in Luke 4:14-30? (You should notice that, in the historical incident accurately reported by Luke, Jesus thought it was necessary to speak unwelcome truth even though there would be a severe backlash against him for doing so).
I will be more precise. Here is the exact reason for this thread topic. There are many Seventh-day Adventists who argue that they have a right to not hear anything from God and to not be challenged by a call to duty, the gospel or anything else, if that call is through a human agent not of their own choosing.
The truth is that an unbeliever may claim this right but a Seventh-day Adventist never can. Does anyone have any doubts about this?
I didn't mean to put these two sentences in separate paragraphs. It's one connected thought.
Quote:
There are many Seventh-day Adventists who argue that they have a right to not hear anything from God and to not be challenged by a call to duty, the gospel or anything else, if that call is through a human agent not of their own choosing. The truth is that an unbeliever may claim this right but a Seventh-day Adventist never can.
OK but I'm still not sure I get it. Are you being sarcastic to make a point or is it really true (literally I mean) that for an SDA this is not a choice?
My opinion is this: I agree with your statement here:
Quote:
There are many Seventh-day Adventists who argue that they have a right to not hear anything from God and to not be challenged by a call to duty, the gospel or anything else, if that call is through a human agent not of their own choosing.
But to me, this is not a problem only with SDAs. It is a problem with everyone -- in all walks of life and in all ways of understanding "the truth" (whether it is what the Bible would consider "the truth" or not) and that includes even people who point out that it is a problem because those people exempt themselves from it, of course. (That statement is not directed at you personally -- I'm new here, don't even know you -- that statement is from my encounters with other people in a variety of walks of life in general!!)
Basically, if the human agent does not appeal to the listener, they will not listen. And ANYTHING can make the human agent unappealing -- "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" after all. You could be too fat, or too short, or not eloquent enough. You could be too poor, not well enough dressed, not refined enough in mannerisms. You could be too female in the midst of an "only males have the right to this area of life" mindset. All of these things may or may not be your fault as the messenger, but one thing is certain: the real crux of the matter could simply be that you speak too much Truth ... and all the rest is just a convenient and stupid excuse for blowing you off.
(Been there, done that ... or rather, had it done to me ... way too many times to count.)
So sometimes it might be a matter of what nietzsche said, about knowing your audience, knowing who they are, and finding them.
This is not a problem only with SDAs. It is a problem with everyone.
You are so right about this dismal state of mind being a common human problem. I wish I knew the words that could highlight the issue. I think it's important. If I had the ability, I would increase the awareness and understanding of this dismal condition in society. I don't understand why the subject is avoided. This problem is so prevalent and so critical yet I never hear of it being talked about in any meaningful way.
Not only that but this phenomenon is no longer confined to matters of spirituality or religion, to matters of one's beliefs about Life, God, Destiny, The Universe & Everything but it is spilling out and manifesting all around us, most notably in the socio-political spectrum of our current era.
This quote:
Quote:
"When a doctrine is presented that does not meet our minds, we should go to the word of God, seek the Lord in prayer, and give no place for the enemy to come in with suspicion and prejudice. We should never permit the spirit to be manifested that arraigned the priests and rulers against the Redeemer of the world. They complained that He disturbed the people, and they wished He would let them alone; for He caused perplexity and dissension. The Lord sends light to us to prove what manner of spirit we are of. We are not to deceive ourselves." GW 301-302.
made me think of nothing so much as the current problem we face in trying to do nothing more complicated than merely speak the truth about the present ruler in this land and the real agendas of his administration and their effects on us as a people and America as a nation. This is a tremendous problem right now and it is precisely being carried out exactly word for word in this particular arena as EGW wrote in the quote above.
Yes, I realize she meant that as indicative of church & spiritual matters, but it is literally true about our socio-political situation of the past 3 years. Those who want to put their heads in the sand and have a big salty old fatcat feelgood field day are reacting exactly this way to anything that questions their blatant, bald-faced (insultingly so) and continual lies and spin.
If you have a political theory you'd like to share, I'd like to read it. Could you start a thread with a concise thesis statement in the Town Hall forum?
I'll be glad to -- as soon as I figure out where, in fact, to even begin!! There are so many things that need addressing, and I'm not very good at organizing humongous splotches of thought that bleed over into other humongous splotches of thought that each contain billions of very intricate sub-threads of their own!
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:35 am Post subject: The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step
“The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.” Long essays are sent to the jail forum.
To start a thread, you only need to post a single coherent thought. A general statement, if it’s interesting, will invite readers to interrogate you for additional details. Pick a sensible direction. All of your wisdom that you wish to share should flow out of ordinary conversation.
Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:08 am Post subject: Is it morally right to speak the truth to an Adventist
Some years ago I was the printer of our church bulletin. I was asked by the minister to include some stuff by pastor Folkenberg which happend to have a very poor section about "Inspiration." As I had discovered that the apostle Paul had expressed the subject "formally" I included his writings on it. No sooner had the papers been issued to the flock than I found myself under seige by one very nasty individual demanding to know what I meant by it? My answer was, "I am a Seventh-day Adventist, and my reply to your question is, "Is it wrong?""
Of course he was utterly unable to answer that partly because he was unable to understand some of the words so he would never know whether it was right or wrong. He replied, "That is not what I am saying." If you don't stop we will take it away from you." He then went to get his father-in-law who was the head Elder and he tried unwisely to come down on me, but backed off pretty fast once he saw I was about to stand my ground. I didn't care whether I ever did another Bulletin or not, but I was disappointed to never receive another fax from the President ever again. So yes, there are plenty of S.D.A.s who want to pick and chose who to receive material from. On that day, there were just two who were very grateful for my efforts, and were startled at the boorish response from some. Whenever people start braying on about how they love the truth it pays to check it out. You will find that it is not that they do not believe it, but that they are unable to believe it. You have to be spiritually minded to achieve that. So, yes, it is morally right to do so, but one should really become very deft at juggling because you are taking your life in your hands.
Sincerely,
R.R. Pollock _________________ R.R. Pollock
That was a very bold move on your part. You thought pastor Folkenberg's stuff on "Inspiration" for the bulletin was poor so you countered it by including the Apostle Paul's thoughts.
Church bulletins are usually small. What's the exact quote on inspiration from Folkenberg and what exactly did you use from Paul's writings?
The one troubled fellow said, "If you don't stop we will take it away from you." What were you to stop? What had you done previously for him to suggest that you were continually doing the same wrong thing?
Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:45 pm Post subject: Response to Eugene and Dzien from Ross
Dear Brethren,
I had nearly completed a response to Eugene when I was called away to help a plumber fix my taps and it took rather a long time. When I got back my machine refused to function properly so I had to close it down and start again. One good thing is that the response to Eugene is identical to that for Dzien, so here goes once again. (lucky I'm a genius)
Folkenberg's nonsense has long been trashed and I can no longer remember what he said, though you could find out by merely asking some low grade S.D.A. minister. They are all in it together. Or better, just go to one of the fallen churches on a Sunday and ask one of their ministers - only they might tell you far better.
Fortunately, I have a copy of that thing I placed in the bulletin to we are o.k. with that.
My immediate problem stemed from the fact that I am a Bible scholar and am seriously concerned for the unfortunate ignorance which is currently being foist onto the ordinary church members. I predominately attend a black church and I have a burden for them since English is far from their native tongues and the nonsense being pushed at them concerns me very greatly. I guess from what I have read of Eugene's troubles, we are in much the same boat since I too have researched the Bible, discovered amazing things, and have printed them out and offered to whomsoever will. It doesn't help that I am tagged as a CB which stands for Circulars and Brochures (when I was running my printing business) Christ's Brothers, or Concerned Brethren. When I am asked what does it mean? I reply, "it depends on who is asking." The fundmental problem arose because some years ago the CB.s spread vast amounts of S.O.P. material throughout the Church when the GC were trying to get rid of it. This caused them to get up the noses of some - who thought they were being very loyal - and now, I am the last of the tribe since all the others left to meet in private - something I am opposed to.
You could say that I am persona non grata on both sides being viewed with great suspicion.
My knack lies in not forcing material on anyone. There are just a few who like to get it, and they are welcome. Whenever they are shown material which catches their attention, they discuss it with others, and then if they ask the service is theirs. Now to the subject in hand.
In 1 Cor.2 we find these words:- "Which things we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but as the Holy Spirit teaches...comparing spiritual with spiritual."
If we examine the word "Comparing" we find that it throws a flood of light on the subject of verbal inspiration as revealed by the apostle Paul.
The word is a compound word in Greek comprising the verb "judge" with the prefix "with." Its direct meaning is to "Compare," "match," and "Combine" with the added force of "Aptness."
It is best seen in an analogy:- A miliner makes a red hat and wishes to trim it with a matching red ribbon. She goes over to the spools of red ribbon and very carefully checks each one until she finds the "only one" which "exactly matches the hat". And this is exactly what the word means. To compare, combine, and match, with great exactitude.
Once the Bible writers had received a revelation they were not left to decide for themselves which bits to include and which to delete. For it is one thing to know something for a fact, but something altogether different to so express that fact in a way that another person can understand it in exactly the same way under the influence of the illumination of the Spirit.
The use of the term "Combine" was not used accidentally, but intentionally reveals to us that, God the Holy Spirit searched the vocabularies of the Bible Writers indicting the exact verb that was necessary for them to present the picture which the Spirit would later use to indict the truth on millions of minds in exactly the same way to those who would come to believe. It is thus that we easily see that there is not a single thread in the Word of God which is of human devising. - This, after all was the reason for Paul's dissertation separating Grecian philosophy from God's own pure Word. Thus it is easily seen that it is all from God, through God, and by God.
* If we were to leave the next passage un-interpreted it would leave many people dead in the water. What, after all, does Spiritual with spiritual mean? They seem to be two adjectives meaning the same thing, which indeed they do, but how?
The first use of the term spiritual, is in the accusative case, the direct object of the verb "Comparing" and in the neuter gender, and refers to the revelation given to the Bible writers. The second use of the term spiritual, is in the instrumental case, the instrumental of association. Its gender can be either masculine or neuter as both have the same gender through the dative cases. We have to look at the context to discern the gender intended. We notice that, the two things to be compared and combined, are the Truth revealed, and the Words which would correctly convey this truth. The words "Spiritual things" refers to this truth, whereas the word spiritual in its second application in v13 refers to the Words. The gender is therefore masculine since the expression "Words" is masculine.
Thus, "combining spiritual things with spiritual words."
In 1 Cor. 2:13 we find the God given explanation of verbal inspiration. There is however a problem. For it to be there, is one thing if you know where to look, to understand it is easy, but to be capable of believing it is something else again for that requires a gift from God known as Faith. It is vitally necessary because "faith comes from hearing the Word of God, and whatever is not of faith is sin."
It was for this careful work I got snarled at when all it would have taken was for that strange man to just as carefully explain exactly where it was wrong.
Arf. Arf.
Sincerely,
Ross
ps True, Church news letters do tend to be small but when you run an offset press you might as well have something to print. They sometimes went to six pages. One was about 70, but that was some music. _________________ R.R. Pollock
Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:31 am Post subject: Telling the Truth to Seventh-day Adventists
I used to meet with a group of CBs. They had a habit of chanting, We believe the Bible and the S.O.P. over and over. One night I began to wonder if that was so. Eventually I was invited to give either a sermon or a talk - ultimately it was a talk followed by a full blown sermon about three months later. My long held burden was this. For a very long time church denominations had taught that Col. 2 had to do with a law. All manner of churches seemed to hold to this. Which law depended on what they wanted to do with it. I found that a lengthy exegesis about 15 years long, led me to the conclusion that far from referring to any law, it was in fact the most beautiful expression of the gospel in all the Bible. This however, was contrary to the general norms of S.D.A.ism but, these people commonly spoke of winding up in court being tried for their faith, and spoke freely of what they would say - even though Jesus warned against it. I became concerned for them because I have been in court many times because of my faith, and have a first hand understanding of how little one can achieve once one is there, so to speak. Knowing how vulnerable their staunch if futile position is concerning Col. 2, I decided to hand it to them. This was not thanks to Dr. Bachiochi, but from several other people whose works come down from years before either he or myself were born. In this I was only seeking to be of some help to them since I know that if they went in that arena with the foolishness they have been taught, they would be slayed and that very fast. O.K. we got under way, and I seemed to have caught their attention - in the worst possible way, but on closing, I was stunned at the reaction. I knew these people fairly well, or thought I did, here they were jumping over chairs, running around the room shouting, screaming, and creating an absolute bedlam.
Perhaps I could say that at the time I was a registered Psychiatric Staff nurse employed in a large Asylum, yet I had never encountered anything like this, not even in a female ward with 35 borstal girls who would frequently riot.
After a while they settled down and one of their number rose to put me straight, he rattled off six questions in a heap, and expected me to answer them all in one answer, which was stupid, however I gave him the answer to one of them which so embarrassed him that he sat down with a thump. S.D.A.s I found to be very isolated. I have conducted formal and informal Bible studies in the most unusual places and am very interested in people and their ideas. I am not so concerned with what a man believes so much as why he believes the way he does. But those people always claimed to believe the Bible and the S.O.P. which would be alright if they knew what those books taught, and what they do not teach. All I can say is that over time, about 18months, most of them came to understand why Col. 2 does not, and cannot, refer to any law partly because the grammatical rules absolutely prevent it on one hand, and the unfortunate mis-translations suddenly fail to support what people have imagined all their lives. One only has to take those twin features and combine them with the writings of Peter the first Pope, in 2nd. Pet. 3:16 which specifically warns what is going to happen to anyone who makes the mistake of twisting the gospel into the law, and bingo. I think it was Sis. White who declared:- Seventh-day Adventist ministers preach the law, the law, the law, but do not preach Christ! Well that is a classical example albeit followed by most churches of the world one way or another.
Sincerely,
Ross _________________ R.R. Pollock
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