A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:11 pm Post subject: Jesus is not a seperate person
Sister Glass wrote:
I have a question. Do you consider that there is a difference between Jesus status with His Heavenly Father here on this earth and in heaven? When Jesus spoke thus about His Father He did so considering that He was in human form. Of course God would be higher. But after returning to heaven, even tho He may still be human, He is now in all His Glory and truly one with the Father once again.
He even told us here that He and His Father were one and that if we seen Him we seen the Father. How can we cut Christ down by saying He is not equal with His Father?
It is important that we do not take what is laid before us as fresh air just because it appears that way. We need to study what the whole Bible has to say on things. I am not claiming to be right, however, I feel we need to do a lot of study on this before accepting one belief or another. Discussion is wonderful, but heart felt study needs to go along with it. Study we do on our own.
Dear Sister-Glass
Study is very important. "study, and show thyself approved." And I have taken the liberty of 5 years on studying this. You asked me a question about the Diety of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, and the Father. Let us go to scripture.
Isa.9:6-"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulders, and his NAME shall be called, Wonderful counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting FATHER, Prince of Peace."
This is who Jesus is right here. The God, not a god, THE FATHER, not a father. Now since there is only One God-and you and I both know that. And he is only One Spirit, as it says in Eph4:4, So we have One God. Who is spirit, and might I add-Invisible, as it also says in Holy Scripture. And his image, is Jesus Christ' and Jesus is the name of God. Being God also-So when Jesus was on earth 'no he was not equal to God, God and God the Father is the same thing, And by being flesh, Jesus was not equal to God. He became the Son of God, And now that he has returned to his righteous place in Heaven-he is equal to God, because he is God. He is not a seperate person 'But the express image of the invisible Force/Spirit/GOD! LET US REASON-There really is Only One God, and his name is Jesus Christ of Nazareth-when we worship/pray-we pray ONE GOD. Or at least we should anyway! And this ONE GOD is the God of ancient, Who is Jesus*Jehova in the Old Testament, became Jesus in the New Testament. I hope this answers your question, feel free to ask more at any time.
Shoshannah~ :D
Joined: 28 Sep 2002 Posts: 2 Location: Northern Ca.
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:34 pm Post subject:
I am glad to hear you say that. I believe in the Trinty myself. I believe there are three, but yet one God. A mistery to us. Being that it is a mistery, you could be right in your interpertation. I could believe that. Then it may be that they are 3 in 1 now and forever. I could see it being either way, even tho I have been in belief of the latter all my life.
The important thing is that we give our all to Christ. God spoke from heaven at Jesus baptism, so I feel their are two beings there plus the Holy Spirit which was also there at that time. All seprate from one another and yet one. So I will hold on to three in one and SOP seems to agree with that also. What is important is that we give our all. When we get to heaven we will find out many things that we wondered about here, or even was so sure we was right about here. Our love needs to be with our heavenly Father/Jesus, however our view point may be. _________________ In His Love,
Sister Glass
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 50 Location: Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 12:16 am Post subject:
Thanks sister! Beatifully said! "Unless we become as little children we cannot enter the kingdom of God." Right? Some of us are acting as though we were saying to the Lord, Let me help you how to teach your message! The trinity is an unfathomable mystery. Like you, I see the three persons there at Jesus's baptism and that suffices! Thank God! The important for now is to not speculate about the mystery of the Godhead or other side issues and appropriate the merits of the Lamb that was slain for it is our only hope for time and eternity! Rom.3:25. _________________ Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.
Like you, I see the three persons there at Jesus's baptism and that suffices!
You really see three persons at Jesus' baptism? You mean "God the Father", "God the Son" and "God the Spirit"? No, my friend. There wasn't three deities present at the Jordan, my brother. Only God the Father, and His Son were there. The very simple explanation is that God the Father was present there by His Spirit which He annointed His Son with to equip Him for His ministry. The Father wasn't physically present at the Jordan. The Father was sitting on His throne in heaven. Remember Jesus saw heaven opened. And the Holy Spirit proceeded from the throne of the Father to Jesus, His Son. Sister White, made this most untrinitarian statement:
“Never before had angels listened to such a prayer as Christ offered at His baptism, and they were solicitous to be the bearers of the message from the Father to His Son. But, no! Direct from the Father issues the light of His glory. The heavens were opened and beams of glory rested upon the Son of God and assumed the form of a dove, in appearance like burnished gold. The dovelike form was emblematical of the meekness and gentleness of Christ. . . . From the opening heavens came these words: “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” . . . Notwithstanding the Son of God was clothed with humanity, yet Jehovah, with His own voice, assures Him of His sonship with the Eternal. In this manifestation to His Son, God accepts humanity as exalted through the excellence of His beloved Son”.(That I May Know Him- 31)
Certainly Ellen White knew full well that the Holy Spirit is not a separate God in a three-God pantheon! In this beautiful scene at the Jordan River, the Eternal God, the "ONLY TRUE GOD", sent the light of His presence, His Spirit to rest on the head of His "only begotten" and "beloved Son".
Unlike you and some others, I see the great God and Father annointing His only begotten Son with His own Spirit and assuring Him of His beloved status and His true Sonship to God in preparation for his fight of faith and the setting of the example that needed to be set to mark out the path that those who believe were to follow.
Can you begin to see this truth, brother? While it may be rejected because it flies in the face of a cherished idol, it cannot be refuted.
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 50 Location: Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 10:18 pm Post subject:
Mickey! All the talking in the world will not change truth into a lie. "Unless you become as a little child, you cannot enter the kingdom of God."
The Bible teaches that there is One God in Three Pesons. Do we pretend to be able to explain this mystery? "Take off the shoes from off your feet for you are on holy ground."
Three years ago, people I had studied with began to teach exactly what you are presenting on this forum. Because I did not agree with them right from the start, they accused me of being close minded. In the following two years we had the opportunity to meet a couple of times so we could compare notes. I read all the material they had on the subject. I gave them many statements and Scriptures showing that their position was wrong but to no avail. I could see that what they were teaching was spurious and only by doing violence to the Scriptures and the SOP and by twisting the meaning of what they read could they come up with something the like of which you, Mickey and others, have come up with on the Godhead.
It came to the place where I had to warn them because I knew that they were heading on a dangerous path. I know they made fun of me and talked behind my back. These were my friends. I still loved them as ever. The last talk we had ended by them turning their backs on me in anger.
A few months later one of them was in the coma in the hospital after a serious fall on the ice injuring his head. The doctors did not think he would make it. He recovered but not fully. He was a truck driver, and a very brilliant man. He lost his job, his license, and was forced to stay at home for more than a year doing nothing. He suffered from a loss of memory, even as we speak.
That same year, the other man involved, who was also a truck driver, and a very good one at that, who had been driving for years with a clean record, and who had never been in an accident, had three consecutive accidents, one minor and two major ones. The truck was totalled but he survived with minor scratches. He too lost his job. He has a family of six. They were forced to move to another province where their parents live. He began working with his father pruning trees. Shortly after he began working, he fell off a tree and broke his ankle. The bone was completely shattered. He is in his thirties. Today he still can't walk normally and I don't know if he ever will.
I visited with them this summer. We get along as long as we stay away from the Trinity issue. I don't know if he still believes the same way. They won't talk about it.
I am telling you these things because I am convinced that what happened to them was a result of rejecting light from the Scriptures and the SOP. I believe you Mickey and David and others are doing the same. Backsliding in one thing, but rejecting light is another. You reject the light once and it makes it harder for you to accept it the next time around. But you are on holy ground and I beg of you to stop fighting the light the Lord has presented to you! _________________ Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.
You know, you're right, AB, all the talking in the world will not change the truth into a lie. And it will not change the lie into the truth. Brother, you say that the bible teaches that there is one God in three persons. But you provide no scriptural testimony. I say that there is one God the Father. But I also point you to 1 Corinthians 8:6 which says the same exact thing! See the difference, brother? You're declaring it - with no scriptural backing. I'm declaring what the scriptures are saying and proving it with its corresponding verse.
Now, I am sorry that you had a distasteful experience with those with whom you were studying this subject with three years ago. They should not have pointed an accusing finger at you or put any labels on you. They were wrong. I, on the other hand, do no such thing. I neither accuse you, nor do I make fun of you behind your back or any other way. That's not the example my Saviour has left me to follow. So-called christians are real good at placing labels. Hey, most "christians" label non-trinitarians as "cults"! They label us as denying the divinity of Christ. You, my brother are guilty of placing that same label. Even on this forum, Eugene has labels for different posters. You're a "Seventh-day Adventist". Steve and me are "Pseudo Seventh-day Adventists", David is still "Under Review" until our righteous moderator renders judgement! But, we're not, in his infallible judgement, a "child of God"! So, my brother, before you rail on those folks that labeled and ridiculed you three years ago, please check out that beam that might be in your own eye - for you have shown me to be a label-maker as well. Having said that, I'd like to address the part of your post which talks about the calamaties that have befallen your friends that do not believe in the trinity.
Obviously, I am not God and do not know these men and cannot judge the reasons why these men suffered in accidents. You seem to believe that its all because they disagreed with you on the trinity issue. Whatever happened to those folks, I do not believe that God suffered those calamaties to befall them because of their refusal to believe in the trinity. Why? Because God wouldn't hurt people who refuse to believe a lie, who refuse to believe that which His word doesn't teach. Now, my brother, you said that you gave those men "many statements and Scriptures showing that their position was wrong". I'm asking you to share those same "many scriptures" which proves that God is a trinity. Thus far, Adventbeliever, you have not done so in the many threads that exist on this subject and the many responses that you've participated in. You've only provided ONE scripture, 1 John 5:7 which I addressed as an interpolation brought into one of the manuscripts in 1215 A.D. You've provided ONE un-authentic scripture, which even if it were authentic, doesn't prove God to be a trinity. So, if you've proved it by "many" scriptures to those men that suffered terrible injuries for refusing to believe you, why don't you do the same for us - point out those scriptures - instead of using "scare tactics" to force those that do not agree with you to subscribe to your viewpoint?
This is not a good method of presenting truth, my brother. Instead of presenting these kind of "scare tactics" to draw folks to God's truth, why not just let God's word do the work and allow His Spirit to bring conviction? Because the concept is very simple. If the power and the word of God is sufficient, and it is - and every doctrine that you espouse and teach is solidly taught in the bible, than the bible alone is all that is needed to bring home the truth - not warning folks to accept what you believe is the truth with no biblical backing. Make sense? God fully protects His people that are trusting in Him. Amen!
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 50 Location: Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 6:26 pm Post subject:
Well, Mickey, I have shared many Scriptures and even the very commentaries of Christ Himself through His humble servant on these passages of Scripture and yet it would seem that you have completely chosen to ignore them and continued to put your own ideas above them! What is there left for the Lord to use? By placing your own opinions above inspiration you are setting yourself up above God! That is what I see and nothing else. The Lord will judge between those who serve Him and those who serve Him not.
The Lord will not have a people who imagine that it is part of the loud cry message to tell the world that there is no such thing as a Triune God. If you continue to spread this fable, the Lord will see to it that your mouth is stopped or some calamity will fall upon you. The Lord will judge in righteousness. He will interfere with those who persist in bringing "wood and hay and stubble" into His own work, that is, "unholy fancies" or "spiritual fables."
The Lord will "make bare His holy arm." When a man rolls up his sleeves, we know that he means business. We know that he is going to do a work. Well, the Lord is rolling up His sleeves and He is preparing a people to proclaim the last message of mercy to the world.
"Falsehoods will be urged upon the attention of God's people, but the truth is to stand clothed in its beautiful, pure garments. It is always to remain uncontaminated by the fallacies by which Satan seeks to deceive, if possible, the very elect." RH, Oct. 13, 1904. _________________ Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.
Last edited by adventbeliever on Sun Oct 27, 2002 2:03 pm; edited 3 times in total
Those whom the Lord will use in giving the "loud cry" message will only be those who are not "defiled with women" - not defiled with the false doctrines of Babylon of which the trinity doctrine is the central doctrine among several others.
Quote:
If you continue to spread this fable, the Lord will see to is that your mouth is stopped or some calamity will fall upon you.
If the non-trinitarian view is a falsehood and a fable, then He would have empowered you with wisdom from His word to thoroughly overthrow this view and expose it as a falsehood. He would have shown you from His word exactly where God is defined as a trinity. And you would have provided those scripture testimonies. This you have not done for you do not have the word of God on your side in this matter. You have not provided one line of scripture that definitively defines God as a trinity and yet I and Steve and others have provided definitive scriptures that emphatically define God as the Father, not a three-fold union of deities - three gods! No, God will not stop the mouths of His servants that are preaching His truth. He will bless them and protect them and continue to empower them to present His truth in a way that it cannot be gainsaid or resisted. The calamities will fall on those that are obstinately clinging to the traditions of men and spurning the plain word of God and teaching others to do the same.
God is indeed rolling up His sleeves and taking the reins in His own hands and He's raising up a remnant of people who know Him and His word and the purity of His doctrines unsullied by fallen Babylon. He's raising up a remnant of people who are exalting His holy name and His character of unselfish love in the giving of His only begotten Son for the salvation of a lost world. God is raising up a remnant of people who will proclaim and demonstrate the righteousness of His Son. Yes, God is indeed rolling up His sleeves and preparing such a people and NO calamity will befall them. The calamities will fall upon those who reject His last message of mercy given through His dedicated remnant.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life - John 3:16
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 50 Location: Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2002 2:21 pm Post subject:
Thanks Mickey! Just about every single one of my posts you have turned upside down! "Surely your turning of things upside down" is known of the Lord!
Who are you anyway, Mickey? :) Who is hiding behind the facade? I am reading between the lines that you see yourself as among the chosen of the Lord to bring the last message of mercy--that is, to tell the world that the teaching on the Trinity is not of God but of Satan. (not that there is anything wrong with being chosen of the Lord to give a message)
I do appreciate the fact that the remnant will not be "defiled with women" that is, with "the churches which have taken sides with the first great apostate." 1 S.M.222. True, these churches hold many false doctrines but to say that the Trinity is one of them is doing violence to the Word of God and to the Testimonies of His Spirit. So be extremely careful that in your efforts not to be "defiled with women" you become one yourself!
For anyone to claim that the Trinity is a false doctrine and that it comes from Babylon is not speaking the thing that is right before the Lord as the friends of Job were guilty of doing! _________________ Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.
Last edited by adventbeliever on Sun Oct 27, 2002 3:43 pm; edited 2 times in total
Who do I see myself as? Nothing! Just a humble student of the word of God who is trusting in Jesus for my salvation. Nothing more!
But I also, like you, read the bible and the SOP and they both teach that the remant that give the "loud cry" will not be defiled and drunk with the wine of the false doctrines of "babylon". And sorry, brother, but the trinity doctrine is a part of that wine mixture that the entire christian world is drunk on.
You said:
Quote:
Thanks Mickey! Just about every single one of my posts you have turned upside down! "Surely your turning of things upside down" is known of the Lord!
Interesting. It seems to me that you are taking this all rather personal and its an "ego" thing with you. The bottom line is, AB, if you were indeed preaching the truth on this matter, we wouldn't be able to gainsay and overthrow and turn "upside down" that which you are presenting.
Now, since this discussion now has the potential for turning into an argument, and I'm sensing that you're losing your cool here, I'm reluctant to make this become an occassion for the flesh. Therefore, I'm done discussing this issue with you. There's nothing more to be said. You've been given plenty of opportunities to present your view as biblically sound with explicit bible verses defining God as a trinity. This hasn't been done. You haven't helped us see the trinity as bible truth. All you've done was display your frustration at your inability to gainsay on God's truth and to hurl threatenings of God's wrath on me and all of us who refuse to acknowledge your view as right. Surely, this behaviour is "known of the Lord".
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 50 Location: Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2002 3:10 pm Post subject:
This is not a personal matter. I have never seen it in that light! What I have presented is not my views but the truth as it is in Jesus from the Scriptures and the SOP. These are the things I have said you have turned upside down!
I am wondering who it is that is getting a bit personal here and upset! :)
P.S. I have alwyays believed that if you have the truth you can afford to be tolerant of others who disagree with you. I am not angry with you personally, never was. But it appears to me that instead of addressing the truth, you keep making accusations that I have not presented any Scripture to substantiate my belief when you know yourself, Mickey, that that could not be anymore further from the truth! _________________ Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.
P.S. I have alwyays believed that if you have the truth you can afford to be tolerant of others who disagree with you. I am not angry with you personally, never was. But it appears to me that instead of addressing the truth, you keep making accusations that I have not presented any Scripture to substantiate my belief when you know yourself, Mickey, that that could not be anymore further from the truth!
I agree that we should be tolerant of others who disagree with us. And I'm glad you're not angry. I don't want you to be angry or upset. For although we don't see eye to eye on this issue, we are still brothers in Christ and I've always addressed you as "brother" in our exchanges.
As far as me saying to you that you have not presented scripture to substantiate your belief, I must say that I don't see it. Yes, brother, you have presented scripture that substantiates the deity and divinity of Christ and I fully agree with you. Here's what I mean when I say that you have not presented scripture to substantiate your belief:
I'm looking for you to point me to scripture that defines God as being composed of three separate deities. Case in point: 1 Corinthians 8:6 does not define God as does Fundamental Belief # 2? There's a very serious contradiction there, my brother.
The following scripture defines God as a singular Person:
Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
The text defines the one God as "He" not "They".
The following texts defines the one God as the Father:
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
I can't find one passage of scripture that defines God as a trinity. And I also can't find one passage from the SOP in which Ellen White defines God as a trinity. Therefore, my brother, I ask you, why then should I believe in the trinity if I can't find one bible text or one text from the SOP to substantiate that belief? That's where I'm coming from, brother.
Now, maybe your understanding of the bible and the SOP is better than mine and you can cite the inspiration in which God is defined as a trinity. If you can do that, I'm willing to accept it and renounce my non-trinitarian position. If not, then it makes no sense for me to do so. Fair enough? :)
Last edited by Mickey on Sun Oct 27, 2002 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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