A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: In His IMAGE and LIKENESS...
[quote="Michael"]
WillieH wrote:
Steve wrote:
Man is made in GOD's IMAGE and LIKENESS... When I speak, it is NOT another person other than myself that is expressed... I am SPIRIT, and when My Spirit speaks, it is the words of the invisible and silent SPIRIT that is ME that speaks, ..and when MY SPIRIT which IS ME departs.. the flesh which I OCCUPIED, is no longer considered ME.
In the end.. in ME (or YOU or anyone), there is only ONE PERSON... and I am made in the IMAGE and LIKENESS of the Creator. No trinity in us, no trinity in GOD.. If GOD is a trinity of 3 persons, ...then we are NOT made in His LIKENESS... for each of us is ONE PERSON!
In JESUS, ~~WillieH~~
Dear WillieH,
God bless you dear friend. I respect your right to believe what you believe, and your right also to express same on this forum. However, I do beg to differ with you in not just the above quote, but in several other things you have said under this thread.
1. I believe you have it very wrong when you say that God making humanity in His image means humanity is one person. I see where you RIGHTLY prefer the words of the Bible over man's words, so what say you of THE BIBLE in Genesis 5:1-3 making it distinctly clear that "man" or "Adam" was a "they" or "them" (a generic term)? That is simply unbeatable!! We are not left in doubt when the Bible says God made "man" in His image, that is, "man" being "MALE AND FEMALE" OR A "THEM" (a plurality) reflecting the "US" of divinity. See Gen. 1:26. That is why despite man and woman made "one flesh" (one in essence), but are still seperate beings. See the same theme evident in Gen. 3:22 where God seemingly drove only a "HIM" out of the garden, but in fact drove two distinct beings out, thus preventing them/him from partaking of the tree of life to become like one of the "US" of divinity.
2.In just the same way that the word "man" can refer to both one person, as well as a plurality of persons, and in fact all of humanity, so is the term "God". It refers to both one person identified as Jehovah God, that is, the Father, and it also refers to distinct persons of divinity, that is, the Father, His divine Son (who is just like Himself in nature), and the Holy Spirit which is found "before His throne" (Rev. 1:4) as the "sevenfold Spirit" in apocalyptic symbol. Jesus sitting at His Father's right hand in Heaven makes him as much a distinct person, as the Holy Spirit is found before the Father's throne, or at other times is sent out by the Father. No one send himself, but certainly sends another distinct from Himself. That simple fact shows the distinction in the Godhead, whether you like the terms "trinity" or "triune" or not! The word "Bible" is a man made term, and is not in the Bible itself, but you use it so freely, don't you?
Much more could be said, but I will allow you to respond first before proceeding. Be blessed.
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:02 am Post subject: Re: In His IMAGE and LIKENESS...
WillieH wrote:
Man is made in GOD's IMAGE and LIKENESS... When I speak, it is NOT another person other than myself that is expressed... I am SPIRIT, and when My Spirit speaks, it is the words of the invisible and silent SPIRIT that is ME that speaks, ..and when MY SPIRIT which IS ME departs.. the flesh which I OCCUPIED, is no longer considered ME.
In the end.. in ME (or YOU or anyone), there is only ONE PERSON... and I am made in the IMAGE and LIKENESS of the Creator. No trinity in us, no trinity in GOD.. If GOD is a trinity of 3 persons, ...then we are NOT made in His LIKENESS... for each of us is ONE PERSON!
In JESUS, ~~WillieH~~
WillieH: This forum is filled with religion as opposed to truth... As far as the "Trinity" goes... if we were made in this image we would be 3 persons in one.. We are not... end of story...
BTW "elohim" is a word also used in scripture, referencing pagan gods in over 100 scriptures.... it is therefore not a word (used to define the trinity because of its plural nature) that is exclusive of our Father... as some would lead some to believe...
Plurality is a characteristic of every Human being... father, son, nephew, brother, etc.. ...each ONE still remains ONE PERSON... Just as IS their Creator...
PS where are you moving me next? Oh yeah outside the city.. Pharisees dont like to be pointed out...
In JESUS, ~~WillieH~~
Dear WillieH,
God bless you dear friend. I respect your right to believe what you believe, and your right also to express same on this forum. However, I do beg to differ with you in not just the above quote, but in several other things you have said under this thread.
1. I believe you have it very wrong when you say that God making humanity in His image means humanity is one person. I see where you RIGHTLY prefer the words of the Bible over man's words, so what say you of THE BIBLE in Genesis 5:1-3 making it distinctly clear that "man" or "Adam" was a "they" or "them" (a generic term)? That is simply unbeatable!! We are not left in doubt when the Bible says God made "man" in His image, that is, "man" being "MALE AND FEMALE" OR A "THEM" (a plurality) reflecting the "US" of divinity. See Gen. 1:26. That is why despite man and woman made "one flesh" (one in essence), but are still seperate beings. See the same theme evident in Gen. 3:22 where God seemingly drove only a "HIM" out of the garden, but in fact drove two distinct beings out, thus preventing them/him from partaking of the tree of life to become like one of the "US" of divinity.
2.In just the same way that the word "man" can refer to both one person, as well as a plurality of persons, and in fact all of humanity, so is the term "God". It refers to both one person identified as Jehovah God, that is, the Father, and it also refers to distinct persons of divinity, that is, the Father, His divine Son (who is just like Himself in nature), and the Holy Spirit which is found "before His throne" (Rev. 1:4) as the "sevenfold Spirit" in apocalyptic symbol. Jesus sitting at His Father's right hand in Heaven makes him as much a distinct person, as the Holy Spirit is found before the Father's throne, or at other times is sent out by the Father. No one send himself, but certainly sends another distinct from Himself. That simple fact shows the distinction in the Godhead, whether you like the terms "trinity" or "triune" or not! The word "Bible" is a man made term, and is not in the Bible itself, but you use it so freely, don't you?
Much more could be said, but I will allow you to respond first before proceeding. Be blessed.[/quote][/quote]
WillieH,
Up to this point you simply continue to beat a dead horse about each person being one person. That goes without saying, and repeating it suggests you are simply setting up a smoke screen behind which you hide from the real issues:
1. Why haven't you answered the fact that Gen. 3:22-24 and Gen. :5:1,2 clearly shows how the pronouns "HE", "HIM" and "HIS" was clearly shown to cover more than one individual person (who were even different genders)- the very same specie that was made in the image of God, and called "one flesh" (or substance), despite their individuality? The same is true of the word "man", and even the name "Adam". Notice how the entire human race was still called "HIM" in Psalm 8:4 (in the original sense, despite the later application of this passage to Jesus, the second Adam). Thus, it is clear that the word "one" is not limited to your own shortsighted devising, but must be accepted as meaning at times (even when "he" is used) more than one person.
2. Why haven't you yet shown why if there was (according to you) only one Godhead Person before Jesus' incarnation that the Bible still succinctly records God speaking as *"US" in Gen. 1:26, 27 aand Gen 11:6,7, and in Isaiah 6:8? Proverbs 30: 4 does much to discredit your view of simply one absolute Godhead person, and even in the very last book of the Bible it shows plurality- "He that sits on the throne (Father) AND the Lamb" (Christ who sits beside Him- Rev. 3:21); not to mention the Holy Spirit "in front of His Throne" (Rev 1:4). Again and again revelation speaks of the Father and Son with the conjunctive "AND" sperating the two. Wake up and see the truth, WillieH.
And don't tell me about use of "majestic plural" when the Bible speaks of the "US' of God, and the Bible's "prophetic [anticipatory] language" (proleptic imagery) why the Father and Son are spoken of in plural terms before Jesus' incarnation. THAT IS SIMPLY YOUR CHURCH'S OPINION WHICH HAS NO FOUNDATION IN SCRIPTURE. You can read it into it (eisogetically), yes, but Biblically proving it is another matter.
Here is a closing thought:
THERE IS ONE PERSON WHO IS GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST!! IT CANNOT BE JESUS HIMSELF BEING HIS OWN FATHER. JESUS SIMPLY BEARS HIS FATHER'S OWN NAME AND TITLES AS AN INHERITANCE (SEE HEBREWS 1). THIS "GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST IS YAHWEH, THE FATHER, WHOM JESUS SITS TODAY AT HIS RIGHT HAND, AND WHOM JESUS CALLS "ANOTHER" OR "ALLOS" IN GREEK; THE ONE ONE WHOM HE IS FOREVER SUBORDINATE TO (1 COR. 15: 28) DESPITE HE IS EQUAL IN NATURE WITH HIM (just like husband and wife).
However, what is clear is that the unity of glory and purpose, between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is of such that there is still one God, the Father, but represented by the other two, whom the Bible shows distinctly as being called "another" or "allos", seperate from God, the Father.
Have you taken time to look at that simple Greek word "allos" for "another WillieH?" It speaks volumes about the personal distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and I don't need to "take you outside the city" to show you truth. Care to listen to the Bible, WillieH? That is all I have been talking about here (with supportive historical data), and I will leave the personal name calling ("Pharisee", and the like) to you.
Be blessed. _________________ THE WORD IS MY SWORD AND SHIELD
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:14 am Post subject: Been there....
WillieH: hello Michael..
Beat a dead horse? It is YOU that beat the poor thing... I have been where you presently are..
Let me say this... I, unlike yourself, do NOT and express NOT "my church's" opinion! I attend the SDA Church! (Let me also say that I am NOT NOW, nor ever WILL BE, a 7th Day Adventist...)
You, on the other hand.. bellow the message "your church" has handed you! How do I know this? ...Hello! I attend the SDA church, and know their stand on this issue (and others)..
Unlike you, I have searched for myself concerning this and many other doctrinal things.. and DO NOT agree with the SDA's... I agree with the WORD, ...not ELLEN G. WHITE.. Which is primarily where you get your hand-me-down stand from... If you seek in the Word of God alone, His Words will be revealed to you, ...not EGW's version of His Words..
The "us" you quote.. (which is very limited compared to the references that personally refer to the PERSON of YHWH) is a plural word.. (as is Elohim - however.. the word elohim is also used in over 100 references to pagan gods, therefore is NOT EXCLUSIVE to YHWH and cannot be used as a proof of plural persons, rather manifestations...)
Of course GOD being the wonderful and GLORIFIED GOD He (not they) is (not are), gives GLORY to HIS WORD - which IS the Son of His heart...
His Mouth (heart / Father) SPOKE.. and the (Word) EXPRESSION (Son) came forth IN POWER...
This is why JESUS stated He knew NOT the day or the hour of His return.. WORDS do NOT KNOW when they will be SPOKEN, neither do they truly have any KNOWLEDGE of what is to be SPOKEN... they are the MANIFESTATION of the Heart.. "..for of the abundance of the HEART, the mouth SPEAKETH..." (Mt 12:34/Lk 6:44)
The OT is full of verses of the "I", "Me" self references of GOD to HIMSELF, and, there are so many verses in the NT that JESUS Himself, gives credit to the FATHER as being the only source, it is futility to list to deaf ears.. But just so's you might find a light to follow, ..try these on for size..
OT...
"..."I" am the first, and "I" am the last, and beside ME, there IS - NO - GOD" (Is 44:6 - no us here! ..He didnt say "We" are the first, etc.)
"I", even "I" am the YHWH, and beside ME, ..there is NO SAVIOR" (Is 43:11 - again, no us here! ..He didnt say beside "Us" now did He?)
Lets go to the NT..
"I can of MINE OWN SELF, do NOTHING..." (John 5:30)
"...the SON can do NOTHING of Himself, but what He seeth the FATHER do, for what things soever HE (the Father) doeth, these also doeth the SON likewise" (again, the Word [Son] following and MIRRORING the HEART [Father] of GOD)
"Why callest thou ME GOOD, NONE is GOOD, ..save ONE, that is GOD.." (Luke 18:19 - these are words DIRECTLY from JESUS CHRIST)
"..that the GOD of our Lord Jesus Christ, ..the FATHER of Glory.." (Eph 1:17 - where is the opposite of this scenario portrayed? It doesnt exist - except maybe in EGW writings. Certainly not in the Holy Scriptures!)
"Blessed be the GOD and FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ.." (Eph 1:3 - again, Jesus is said here to have a GOD, and that GOD is the FATHER ...YHWH, ..the Father is the SOURCE of His WORDS.. His WORD's therefore are GOD as well, but have no separate personage.)
If GOD were actually 3, this doctrine would be supported THROUGHOUT His Word.. it is most CERTAINLY NOT... That GOD occupies several places within His GODHOOD, doesnt separate Him into many persons.. quite the contrary.. We are made in HIS image, after His likeness.. ...ONE.
As previously stated, I have been in the place you now stand... I searched, and found otherwise in His word.. Its okay for you to be where you are.. Salvation is for ALL, and one day, we shall ALL see truth where we once, ...misunderstood..
BTW - here's some others for you (and EGW) to disagree with: There is NO HELL/Hellfire... ALL Mankind will eventually be SAVED... Baptism via water is unecessary... (thief on the cross) Sunday worshippers are saved AND God's people as well... Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, not Friday... The mansions Christ is preparing ARE US, not buildings in some material city...
To further list verses is an exercise in futility.. either you see this or you dont.. a million verses will not convince one that WILL NOT be CONVINCED.. And Theological examinations are the heritage of Pharisees, therefore.. I wont "spiritually spar" with you on this further...
Michael, you waste your breath with your "supportive" (flawed, sinful, decieving, blasphemous, ...historical "data"... Trust in such writings is the deception of Satan himself..
You probably think that Satan is hardest at work in the world.. How decieved is that? The greatest part of satanic attention is in the church.. Which, unfortunately, remains enslaved in Babble-on: "...come out of her my people.." (Rev 18:4) You would ask why do I worship at the SDA church... I find the love of GOD there, and firmly believe in worshipping on the Sabbath, NOT as a Law to keep, but honoring the Day He claimed as His...
WillieH... Saved by GRACE... not a dead horse!
Stick to His Word, ...He will be more proud of you, and reward you further, for standing by, and trusting in HIS WORD ...alone...
In JESUS ~~WillieH~~
Michael wrote:
WillieH,
Up to this point you simply continue to beat a dead horse about each person being one person. That goes without saying, and repeating it suggests you are simply setting up a smoke screen behind which you hide from the real issues:
1. Why haven't you answered the fact that Gen. 3:22-24 and Gen. :5:1,2 clearly shows how the pronouns "HE", "HIM" and "HIS" was clearly shown to cover more than one individual person (who were even different genders)- the very same specie that was made in the image of God, and called "one flesh" (or substance), despite their individuality? The same is true of the word "man", and even the name "Adam". Notice how the entire human race was still called "HIM" in Psalm 8:4 (in the original sense, despite the later application of this passage to Jesus, the second Adam). Thus, it is clear that the word "one" is not limited to your own shortsighted devising, but must be accepted as meaning at times (even when "he" is used) more than one person.
2. Why haven't you yet shown why if there was (according to you) only one Godhead Person before Jesus' incarnation that the Bible still succinctly records God speaking as *"US" in Gen. 1:26, 27 aand Gen 11:6,7, and in Isaiah 6:8? Proverbs 30: 4 does much to discredit your view of simply one absolute Godhead person, and even in the very last book of the Bible it shows plurality- "He that sits on the throne (Father) AND the Lamb" (Christ who sits beside Him- Rev. 3:21); not to mention the Holy Spirit "in front of His Throne" (Rev 1:4). Again and again revelation speaks of the Father and Son with the conjunctive "AND" sperating the two. Wake up and see the truth, WillieH.
And don't tell me about use of "majestic plural" when the Bible speaks of the "US' of God, and the Bible's "prophetic [anticipatory] language" (proleptic imagery) why the Father and Son are spoken of in plural terms before Jesus' incarnation. THAT IS SIMPLY YOUR CHURCH'S OPINION WHICH HAS NO FOUNDATION IN SCRIPTURE. You can read it into it (eisogetically), yes, but Biblically proving it is another matter.
Here is a closing thought:
THERE IS ONE PERSON WHO IS GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST!! IT CANNOT BE JESUS HIMSELF BEING HIS OWN FATHER. JESUS SIMPLY BEARS HIS FATHER'S OWN NAME AND TITLES AS AN INHERITANCE (SEE HEBREWS 1). THIS "GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST IS YAHWEH, THE FATHER, WHOM JESUS SITS TODAY AT HIS RIGHT HAND, AND WHOM JESUS CALLS "ANOTHER" OR "ALLOS" IN GREEK; THE ONE ONE WHOM HE IS FOREVER SUBORDINATE TO (1 COR. 15: 28) DESPITE HE IS EQUAL IN NATURE WITH HIM (just like husband and wife).
However, what is clear is that the unity of glory and purpose, between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is of such that there is still one God, the Father, but represented by the other two, whom the Bible shows distinctly as being called "another" or "allos", seperate from God, the Father.
Have you taken time to look at that simple Greek word "allos" for "another WillieH?" It speaks volumes about the personal distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and I don't need to "take you outside the city" to show you truth. Care to listen to the Bible, WillieH? That is all I have been talking about here (with supportive historical data), and I will leave the personal name calling ("Pharisee", and the like) to you.
Be blessed.
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:40 am Post subject: A Load...
WillieH: One last comment Michael.. You condescend with the best of them, now dont you?
You leave the name calling to me? Do you think I see not ...the NOSE with which you look down at me, for suggesting Pharisee attitudes in you?
It is You Michael that in satanic subtlety name me the "name caller" while carefully relieving yourself of this title, how very "intellectual" of you....
I forgive you... (and your use of "supportive data" - what a load of crap! )
In JESUS ~~WillieH~~
Michael wrote:
WillieH,
Up to this point you simply continue to beat a dead horse about each person being one person. That goes without saying, and repeating it suggests you are simply setting up a smoke screen behind which you hide from the real issues:
1. Why haven't you answered the fact that Gen. 3:22-24 and Gen. :5:1,2 clearly shows how the pronouns "HE", "HIM" and "HIS" was clearly shown to cover more than one individual person (who were even different genders)- the very same specie that was made in the image of God, and called "one flesh" (or substance), despite their individuality? The same is true of the word "man", and even the name "Adam". Notice how the entire human race was still called "HIM" in Psalm 8:4 (in the original sense, despite the later application of this passage to Jesus, the second Adam). Thus, it is clear that the word "one" is not limited to your own shortsighted devising, but must be accepted as meaning at times (even when "he" is used) more than one person.
2. Why haven't you yet shown why if there was (according to you) only one Godhead Person before Jesus' incarnation that the Bible still succinctly records God speaking as *"US" in Gen. 1:26, 27 aand Gen 11:6,7, and in Isaiah 6:8? Proverbs 30: 4 does much to discredit your view of simply one absolute Godhead person, and even in the very last book of the Bible it shows plurality- "He that sits on the throne (Father) AND the Lamb" (Christ who sits beside Him- Rev. 3:21); not to mention the Holy Spirit "in front of His Throne" (Rev 1:4). Again and again revelation speaks of the Father and Son with the conjunctive "AND" sperating the two. Wake up and see the truth, WillieH.
And don't tell me about use of "majestic plural" when the Bible speaks of the "US' of God, and the Bible's "prophetic [anticipatory] language" (proleptic imagery) why the Father and Son are spoken of in plural terms before Jesus' incarnation. THAT IS SIMPLY YOUR CHURCH'S OPINION WHICH HAS NO FOUNDATION IN SCRIPTURE. You can read it into it (eisogetically), yes, but Biblically proving it is another matter.
Here is a closing thought:
THERE IS ONE PERSON WHO IS GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST!! IT CANNOT BE JESUS HIMSELF BEING HIS OWN FATHER. JESUS SIMPLY BEARS HIS FATHER'S OWN NAME AND TITLES AS AN INHERITANCE (SEE HEBREWS 1). THIS "GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST IS YAHWEH, THE FATHER, WHOM JESUS SITS TODAY AT HIS RIGHT HAND, AND WHOM JESUS CALLS "ANOTHER" OR "ALLOS" IN GREEK; THE ONE ONE WHOM HE IS FOREVER SUBORDINATE TO (1 COR. 15: 28) DESPITE HE IS EQUAL IN NATURE WITH HIM (just like husband and wife).
However, what is clear is that the unity of glory and purpose, between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is of such that there is still one God, the Father, but represented by the other two, whom the Bible shows distinctly as being called "another" or "allos", seperate from God, the Father.
Have you taken time to look at that simple Greek word "allos" for "another WillieH?" It speaks volumes about the personal distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and I don't need to "take you outside the city" to show you truth. Care to listen to the Bible, WillieH? That is all I have been talking about here (with supportive historical data), and I will leave the personal name calling ("Pharisee", and the like) to you.
Be blessed.
WillieH,
For all your descriptive adjectives, and your personal innuendos, I say in response: GOD LOVES YOU, AND SO DO I.
For all your Scriptures quoted, in the previous message, in response I simply point you again to the same truth you have been missing me saying (yet you inadvertently quote Scriptures in support of), to be found in the very last paragraph of my previous message. Seems to me you have missed what I wrote, that God is one person, THE FATHER, but is represented to us by other Godhead personalities, i.e. by Jesus His Son, and He is everywhere by His Spirit. One God, the Father, but never known apart from His Son and His Spirit (the inseperable trio, as it were). Thus Godhead (divinity) is BOTH a singular concept, and a plurality, yet limited to ONLY three personalities.
"Adam" too was one person, but his name and nature covers more than one person (Gen. 5:1-3), and thus "man" is a BOTH A singular concept and a plural or collective one too (Ps. 8:4). No one can beat that if you stay within the bible, obviously. So what is it you are really refuting? Beats me!!
Finally, you earlier said it is NOT "PIVOTAL" to our salvation to understand the truths about God's person and nature, but in response I quote Jesus saying, "This is life eternal that they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus whom thou hast sent". JOHN 17:3. End of story. I believe Jesus over you any day. Knowing the truth about God is PIVOTAL to salvation since there are many false spirits in the world, and there are god's many (1 Cor. 8:5,6).
Be blessed in your spirit brother, and have a good day. Shalom!!
P.S. All those heresies you declared regarding hell, salvation, Wednesday crucifixion, etc, I would be willing to discuss with you privately by e-mails (i.e. if you see me in a tolerable enough spirit to want to discuss matters amicably with me), since thay are off-topic under this thread . If not, then so let it be. I know the truths of God's Word regarding all those issues, and am satisfied. Shalom my friend, Shalom. _________________ THE WORD IS MY SWORD AND SHIELD
Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:12 pm Post subject: Discussion...
WillieH: Hello Michael...
I wish you no ill... On the contrary... I wish you JESUS! My supposed innuendos depict the spirit from which they were drawn, ...not you (God's child) as an individual..
My statement about "knowing" the person of GOD as being pivitol concerning our salvation is true.. Salvation is entirely and purely the GIFT of GOD.. It DOES NOT DEPEND upon anything we do, know or say.. it is surely NOT dependent in any way upon our knowledge for our knowledge no matter how spiritual and righteous is as filthy rags to the Almighty... It is in no way dependent upon our deeds for our deeds are tainted in sin.. It is in no way dependent upon anything we say, for our words lie in the same pool of sin that the prior listed reasons lie in..
Where does that leave us? It leaves it where we rightly belong.. IN HIS HANDS!! Now should we talk of REWARD... this my friend, has everything to do with what we know, do and say...
When JESUS returns, he brings HIS REWARD with him for EVERY MAN, according to his/her works WORKS.... (Rev 22:12)
As far as discussion on those topics I listed, I am happy to discuss them with you, but let us discuss where ALL can see!
In JESUS... WillieH
Michael wrote:
WillieH,
For all your descriptive adjectives, and your personal innuendos, I say in response: GOD LOVES YOU, AND SO DO I.
For all your Scriptures quoted, in the previous message, in response I simply point you again to the same truth you have been missing me saying (yet you inadvertently quote Scriptures in support of), to be found in the very last paragraph of my previous message. Seems to me you have missed what I wrote, that God is one person, THE FATHER, but is represented to us by other Godhead personalities, i.e. by Jesus His Son, and He is everywhere by His Spirit. One God, the Father, but never known apart from His Son and His Spirit (the inseperable trio, as it were). Thus Godhead (divinity) is BOTH a singular concept, and a plurality, yet limited to ONLY three personalities.
"Adam" too was one person, but his name and nature covers more than one person (Gen. 5:1-3), and thus "man" is a BOTH A singular concept and a plural or collective one too (Ps. 8:4). No one can beat that if you stay within the bible, obviously. So what is it you are really refuting? Beats me!!
Finally, you earlier said it is NOT "PIVOTAL" to our salvation to understand the truths about God's person and nature, but in response I quote Jesus saying, "This is life eternal that they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus whom thou hast sent". JOHN 17:3. End of story. I believe Jesus over you any day. Knowing the truth about God is PIVOTAL to salvation since there are many false spirits in the world, and there are god's many (1 Cor. 8:5,6).
Be blessed in your spirit brother, and have a good day. Shalom!!
P.S. All those heresies you declared regarding hell, salvation, Wednesday crucifixion, etc, I would be willing to discuss with you privately by e-mails (i.e. if you see me in a tolerable enough spirit to want to discuss matters amicably with me), since thay are off-topic under this thread . If not, then so let it be. I know the truths of God's Word regarding all those issues, and am satisfied. Shalom my friend, Shalom.
WillieH,
I certainly appreciate your thoughts and sentiments, and while I may not agree, I respect your right to hold them. Sorry again but I cannot agree with you about salvation not based on anything we know. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
Jesus is the only means of salvation, but we must know of Him, and get to know Him, and ultimately, through Him, get to know his Father. There is no other way. There are many sincere people in many false religions of the world who do not know Christ, and that is why we are commissioned to go and INFORM them of Him, whom to know is life everlasting. That's my point about Jesus saying, THIS IS LIFE ETERNAL, that you may KNOW....
Jesus said to the woman at the well, you worship you KNOW NOT WHAT...
KNOWING is important. That is, knowing who the true God is, and how he made a way to be saved.
Ephesians 2:8-10 tells us, like James 2, that faith without works is dead, since TRUE faith in Jesus moves one to action.
Salvation in Jesus is not in a vacuum. If is dependent on knowledge, which brings action.
YOU ARE RIGHT THOUGH THAT NOTHING WE DO REALLY SAVES US, WE ONLY NEED TO KNOW JESUS, AND HE DOES THE SAVING, BUT HE SAVES US TO THEN WALK AS HE WALKED (Eph. 2:10).
Be blessed.
P.S. Start a new thread on any of the other controversial issues you raised, and I will happily join you. Why not start with the "Wednesday crucifixion" theory, for instance? _________________ THE WORD IS MY SWORD AND SHIELD
Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:03 am Post subject: Cant wait...
WillieH: Hi Michael...
Here again you make salvation DEPENDENT on US.. You say that in order to be saved that something that we DO is the PIVITOL point.. (whether you realize this or not, this notion is a PRIDEFUL desire.. wanting to be the "one" that came to Christ.. the "one" that made a "decision" for Christ, the "one" that has gained the "knowledge" of Christ, ..etc)
I say AGAIN, that the GIFT of GOD is DEPENDENT on HIM... Nothing we DO including KNOWING this gift has been provided, ...saves us. It is CHRIST's accomlishment ALONE that decides SALVATION...
Analyzing your supposed "knowledge": Faith is required... FAITH cometh by HEARING and HEARING ...BY... the Word of GOD - CHRIST... (in other words no one CAN BELIEVE unless GOD gives that individual the ability to BELIEVE... He intends everyone to eventually come to this saving knowledge/faith IN DUE TIME: 1 Tim 2:3-4 - "for THIS is good and ACCEPTABLE in the sight of GOD our SAVIOR, who WILL have ALL MEN to be SAVED and to come to the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH") (1 Tim 2:5/6 "Christ JESUS who gave Himself a ransom for ALL to be TESTIFIED.. in DUE TIME)
The scriptures state that NO one CAN come to the Father but BY JESUS, it also states that no one CAN COME to JESUS except the FATHER DRAW HIM, JESUS stated that if He was lifted up (crucified) that HE would DRAW ALL MEN to Him, and the scripture further states that GOD is NO RESPECTER of persons..
So what we have is this... GOD is NO RESPECTER of persons.. No one can come to JESUS except by the Father... No one can come to the Father but by JESUS.. and Christ stated He would draw ALL MEN unto Himself... What do you get out of this? You have to be INTENTIONALLY BLIND, DEAF and DECEPTIVE to NOT SEE that GOD will SAVE ALL MEN... This being true, then SALVATION is NOT UP to US!! By nature we go in the opposite direction... But HE draws, HE teaches (gives knowledge), and HE SAVES ALL... IN DUE TIME... (1 Tim 2:6) Therefore, it has nothing to do with any supposed decision of ours, it is HIS decision.. the decision for each one is in HIS TIME, by HIS WILL...
Try this verse on for size (parenthetical comments mine): (1 Tim 4:9-11)
9 "...THIS is a FAITHFUL SAYING (full of FAITH), and WORTHY of ALL ACCEPTATION (worthy to be accepted by ALL),
10 "..for therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we TRUST in the Living GOD, who IS the SAVIOR of ALL MEN.. SPECIALLY... THOSE that BELIEVE.."
11 "..THESE THINGS... COMMAND and TEACH"
Do you teach "these things" Michael? Does the SDA church teach "these things"? (can't wait to hear your reply, and please leave EGW out of it! State YOUR OWN CASE)
I give credit.. FULL CREDIT to GOD for my salvation, taking NONE for myself... Left to myself, I would be no closer to GOD than the athiests that oppose His existence...
Who do you credit? If you believe it is up to YOUR knowledge and YOUR (supposed) DECISION, then it is YOU that in the end gets the credit...
Once He has done this "SAVING", we are drawn TO HIMN and empowered BY HIM to walk as He walked.. These actions (which are our WORKS) are in NO WAY pivitol in DETERMINING our Salvation.. they do determine however... OUR REWARD... (1 Cor 3:12-15) (Mark 9:49) (Rev 22:12)
And you be blessed yourself my boy!
In JESUS ...WillieH
Michael wrote:
WillieH,
I certainly appreciate your thoughts and sentiments, and while I may not agree, I respect your right to hold them. Sorry again but I cannot agree with you about salvation not based on anything we know. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
Jesus is the only means of salvation, but we must know of Him, and get to know Him, and ultimately, through Him, get to know his Father. There is no other way. There are many sincere people in many false religions of the world who do not know Christ, and that is why we are commissioned to go and INFORM them of Him, whom to know is life everlasting. That's my point about Jesus saying, THIS IS LIFE ETERNAL, that you may KNOW....
Jesus said to the woman at the well, you worship you KNOW NOT WHAT...
KNOWING is important. That is, knowing who the true God is, and how he made a way to be saved.
Ephesians 2:8-10 tells us, like James 2, that faith without works is dead, since TRUE faith in Jesus moves one to action.
Salvation in Jesus is not in a vacuum. If is dependent on knowledge, which brings action.
YOU ARE RIGHT THOUGH THAT NOTHING WE DO REALLY SAVES US, WE ONLY NEED TO KNOW JESUS, AND HE DOES THE SAVING, BUT HE SAVES US TO THEN WALK AS HE WALKED (Eph. 2:10).
Be blessed.
P.S. Start a new thread on any of the other controversial issues you raised, and I will happily join you. Why not start with the "Wednesday crucifixion" theory, for instance?
WillieH,
Have it your way (by your interpretation of the Scriptures, that is). WILLIEH, YOU ARE RIGHT. EVEN OUR DECISION TO ACCEPT JESUS IS NOT OURS, BUT A SPIRITUAL ROBOTIC RESPONSE. THUS WE ARE NOT FREE AGENTS, BUT ROBOTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. AND ALL MEN WILL BE, AND ARE BEING DRAWN INTO THE KINGDOM, AND ALL MEN WILL BE EVENTUALLY SAVED AS SPIRITUAL ROBOTS. WHAT NEED THEN IS THERE OF HELL, AND HOW WRONG WERE THE PROPHETS AND JESUS HIMSELF ABOUT ONLY A FEW WILL BE SAVED? How wrong was 2 Thess. 1:7-10 and Rev. 20:7-9!!
P.S. How much Satan loves such theologywhich you here espouse. What a recipe for disaster. But "YOU ARE RIGHT" is certainly what you would love me to say!! So there you have it. "YOU ARE RIGHT". LOL.
I will be praying for you. God help us all. _________________ THE WORD IS MY SWORD AND SHIELD
Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:06 pm Post subject: Presented...
WillieH: Hi Michael...
You have been presented the truth.. As were the Pharisees... Via "Your choice" you can accept or reject, just as they...
What of the Prayer.. "Our Father in Heaven, hallowed be Thy Name, Thy Kingdom come, THY WILL be done... In EARTH as it IS in HEAVEN..."
Where in this prayer do we find your precious "choice"? It is Man's "Choice" (via Adam & Eve) that we are in this mess, is it not? Is not this prayer telling us to GIVE UP our precious "choice" in favor of GOD's WILL? You find this robotic? Whose "choice" will things proceed from in the Kingdom of Heaven if GOD's WILL will be done there?
Also, I noticed that you "chose" not to answer my question concerning the INSTRUCTION of Paul (via the Holy Spirit) in 1 Tim 4:9-11...
Because we align our "choice" with His WILL does not make us robots.. It merely shows agreement with what is RIGHT... thus the word RIGHTEOUSNESS... You, as most traditionalists must insist that the crowning aspect of Salvation come from you... You WILL learn otherwise in the Lake of Fire... Most ALL "Christians" will learn this in the LOF..
That is okay, as all things (including your precious "choices") are under the direction and control of GOD... Or do you argue with this as well?
Well if you don't, then you must believe that GOD is SOVERIGN and that
NO ONE can transcend His WILL as depicted in Romans.. 12:36 "for OF HIM and THROUGH HIM and TO HIM are ALL THINGS.." Just how much is left out of this verse, eh Michael?
How about Rom 3:10-13.. "AS IT IS WRITTEN.. there is NONE RIGHTEOUS, no - not - one.. There is NONE that UNDERSTANDETH, there is NONE that DOETH GOOD, no - not- one... They are altogether gone OUT OF THE WAY, they are together become unprofitable, there is NONE that DOETH GOOD, no - not one..." Where is your precious choice or decision for Christ found in this?
And where is your precious choice in this: "For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD.. being JUSTIFIED FREELY by His GRACE through REDEMPTION that is in CHRIST JESUS" (Rom 3:23-24) How many are disincluded in ALL, eh Michael? And does it not say REDEMPTION is IN CHRIST JESUS? Is there mention of your precious "choice"? Or is it HE that is accomplishing in EVERY ASPECT, your eternal life?
How about this one: (Rom 9:16) "so then it is NOT of him that WILLETH (your choice) nor of him that runneth (your actions) but of GOD that showeth MERCY.."
And this: (Rom 9:19) "...who hath RESISTED His WILL?" What is His Will? "God is not WILLING that ANY should PERISH.." (2Pet3:9) "..God OUR SAVIOR who WILL have ALL MEN come unto the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH" (1 Tim 2:3/4) Where is your "choice" pivotal here?
Enough... Your INTERPRETATION is of religion.. mine are quotes from scripture... it says what it says.. and doesnt NEED any interpretation..
Our destiny is to serve.. And to eternally come under HIS WILL in ALL THINGS... It is the DEATH of our "choice" or "will" that in fact, ...is the 2nd DEATH... For when you die to yourself (your will/spiritually) you are then RESURRECTED with CHRIST and HIS WILL.. This is spiritual understanding 101... One day ALL will get it.. but for now.. the flesh (and its "will", argues against this...)
May the Lord bless your understandings with HIS WORD...
In JESUS... WillieH
Michael wrote:
WillieH,
Have it your way (by your interpretation of the Scriptures, that is). WILLIEH, YOU ARE RIGHT. EVEN OUR DECISION TO ACCEPT JESUS IS NOT OURS, BUT A SPIRITUAL ROBOTIC RESPONSE. THUS WE ARE NOT FREE AGENTS, BUT ROBOTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. AND ALL MEN WILL BE, AND ARE BEING DRAWN INTO THE KINGDOM, AND ALL MEN WILL BE EVENTUALLY SAVED AS SPIRITUAL ROBOTS. WHAT NEED THEN IS THERE OF HELL, AND HOW WRONG WERE THE PROPHETS AND JESUS HIMSELF ABOUT ONLY A FEW WILL BE SAVED? How wrong was 2 Thess. 1:7-10 and Rev. 20:7-9!!
P.S. How much Satan loves such theologywhich you here espouse. What a recipe for disaster. But "YOU ARE RIGHT" is certainly what you would love me to say!! So there you have it. "YOU ARE RIGHT". LOL.
For all your Scriptures quoted, in the previous message, in response I simply point you again to the same truth you have been missing me saying (yet you inadvertently quote Scriptures in support of), to be found in the very last paragraph of my previous message. Seems to me you have missed what I wrote, that God is one person, THE FATHER, but is represented to us by other Godhead personalities, i.e. by Jesus His Son, and He is everywhere by His Spirit. One God, the Father, but never known apart from His Son and His Spirit (the inseperable trio, as it were). Thus Godhead (divinity) is BOTH a singular concept, and a plurality, yet limited to ONLY three personalities.
hi michael
you said god is one person. where in the scripture did it said that god is one person?
Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:59 pm Post subject: Backacha Vec...
WillieH: Hi Vector...
backacha... where in the scriptures does it say that He is 3 persons?
Your "trinity" makes God sound like a riddle: He is 3 yet 1 - what is He?
How can a "He" be plural? He would have to be a "They" (using your perception of persons within GOD)
Whereas... the understanding of God as one PERSON... Makes Him sound more like a "Him" than a "Them"...
Using your thinking... EACH Human made in "His" image would be a "THEM" containing 3 persons in ONE... How many persons are there in YOU, Vector? ...3? If your answer to this question is yes, ... a psychiatric visit may be in order! If it is NO, then you must not be made in His likeness and image, eh?
PS... HE did NOT say... "Thou shalt have no other Gods before US.. did He?
Your doctrinal view GOD = + + = CONFUSION
GOD = = LOGICAL and is EVIDENTIAL in that our entities as Humans are ONE person (made in HIS IMAGE and LIKENESS).
In JESUS, ...WillieH
vector wrote:
For all your Scriptures quoted, in the previous message, in response I simply point you again to the same truth you have been missing me saying (yet you inadvertently quote Scriptures in support of), to be found in the very last paragraph of my previous message. Seems to me you have missed what I wrote, that God is one person, THE FATHER, but is represented to us by other Godhead personalities, i.e. by Jesus His Son, and He is everywhere by His Spirit. One God, the Father, but never known apart from His Son and His Spirit (the inseperable trio, as it were). Thus Godhead (divinity) is BOTH a singular concept, and a plurality, yet limited to ONLY three personalities.
hi michael
you said god is one person. where in the scripture did it said that god is one person?
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