Where is my error?

Eugene Shubert · Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:19 am Post subject: Where is my error?

For centuries there has been an unsolved yet troubling mystery in the Bible. At the same time there has been a great confidence that no understanding of the mystery could be achieved. The mystery is that the Bible has three contradictory definitions of God:

God is

1. The Father (1 Corinthians 8:6-7, John 17:3, 1 Timothy 1:17).
2. The Son (Isaiah 9:6, John 8:58, Hebrews 1:7-8).
3. The Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17,18).

The mystery deepens because the Bible insists that there is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 45:21-22, Mark 12:28,29). The mystery is a good one; it is clear that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are separate and distinct. …We only need one Scripture to prove this. Jesus said he would return to the Father and send the Spirit (John 16:5,7,8).

The answer to the ancient mystery, I believe, is to regard the Father as truly God and the Son of God and the Spirit of God as perfect representatives of the one true God.

How perfectly does the Son represent the Father? What is the will of the Father in the way we receive His Son?

The Father has made the exalted nature of Christ fully known. The Son should be regarded as equal with the Father. Their natures are the same. The word of the Son is to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. Wherever the presence of His Son is, it is as if the Father is present. To worship the Son is to worship the Father. The Son represents the revealed will and mind of God so perfectly that He is rightfully called the word of God (John 1:1).

This view might sound like it’s Trinitarian but I don’t think it is.

Steve · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 09 Jun 2002 Posts: 146

Yes, that view is Trinitarian. You describe three that are called God. That is the Catholic description. (see post on How did the SDA Church become Trinitarian page 8).

In thinking of the word God as meaning divine or deity then I would regard your statements about the Father and the Son as accurate. These two beings hold the highest position in the universe. (Rev. 22:1)

The Holy Spirit however, is an agent of the Father and the Son. It is the power and glory of the Father communicated to us through the Son. The Father and the Son live in us through the Holy Spirit (John 14:23, Rom. 8:11)

Eugene Shubert · Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2002 9:25 am Post subject:

Steve,

I don’t think that you’re listening carefully. I said,

Mickey · Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2002 8:13 pm Post subject:

It is true that God, the Father called His Son God. That scriptural reference of Hebrews 1:7-8 is a quote from Psalms 45:6. So, there's no doubt about it. The Father most definetly called His Son God. But what needs to be noted and understood is that although the Father called His Son God, that doesn't make Christ the ONE and only true God. Nor does it make both the Father AND the Son that ONE and only true God together as is erroneously taught by some trinitarians. What's very important to understand is the verse following. Which is Psalms 45:7 in which the Father identifies HIMSELF as the God of His Son. Hebrews 1:9 quotes Psalms 45:7. This is extremely important. The Father is the God of the Son. And Jesus makes reference to this fact several times. Please note the following:

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

SEVEN times in the New Testament, Jesus Christ referred to His Father as "MY GOD". And four of those occurrances were AFTER Christ's ascencion into heaven and glorification. The glorified Christ STILL referred to God the Father as "MY GOD". Why? Because the Father was always the Son's God. Now, there's absolutely NO scripture which informs us that Christ, the Son was the God of the Father. Christ is in no wise the God of the Father. The Father has no God to offer worship to. The Father IS God. That is His identity. The Son is NOT God in the same exact way as is the Father. Ellen White understood this truth. I referenced this quote in a previous post but will be glad to re-reference it. Ellen White said the following:

The Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father, is truly God in infinity, but not in personality. UL 367.4, MS 116, Dec. 19, 1905

In nature and character Christ is LIKE God. Hence His name Michael - "He who is LIKE God". Christ has all the attributes of God. He is, after all, God's Son. Son's usually take on the attributes of their father! In the case of Christ, those attributes are GOD'S attributes that Christ the Son INHERITED from God, His Father(Hebrews 1:4). The Father didn't inherit any of His divine attributes. Why? Because He is GOD, the "ONLY TRUE GOD" (John 17:3), He had no beginning. Christ, the Son DID have a beginning (Proverbs 8:22-31). As repugnant to trinitarians as that may be, it doesn't change the truth and neither can they gainsay or disprove it by scripture. So, Christ is God in nature and character but NOT in identity. He's NOT the "only true God", the Father is(John 17:3). He's NOT "above all", the Father is(Ephesians 4:6). He's NOT the "one God", the Father is(1Corinthians 8:6). Christ is Michael (LIKE God).

How SDA's can believe that Michael is Christ and then do a theological back-flip and cart-wheel and say that Christ is a co-equal, co-eternal God along with the Father defies any semblance of reason, common sense, and the most basic intelligence. It cannot be had both ways.

Another thing to consider is that the bible testifies that no human being has ever laid eyes on God. No man has ever seen God. That's what the bible says, right here:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Now, the question: who is God? Who is this being called God that no man has at any time seen?

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

The answer: THE FATHER is GOD. No man at any time has ever seen God. Even Ellen White in vision never saw the face or form of God. But many have seen Christ the Son. And notice something very important that Jesus reveals to us in John 6:46. Jesus reveals to us that the only man that has ever seen God is "he which is OF God". Very important! The word "of" is a functional word indicating origin. Jesus is saying that the only being that is identified with the human race that has ever seen God is HIMSELF, Christ, God's Son whose origin is from God!

Sufficient proof has been provided from the scriptures which shows conclusively that the Father is the ONE and ONLY true God and that HE is the Being that constitutes the ONE God. Not a conglomeration of three gods with one train of thought.

If the trinitarian view is the correct one then all three divine beings or gods could NEVER either be the god of another god or bow in worship to one of his divine peers. And this of course does serious damage to the testimony of Christ, both before and after His glorification in which He emphatically refers to His Father as "MY GOD".

This is just another example of the self-consuming and contradictory nature of this trinity heresy.

So, the references to "God the Father", "God the Son", and "God the Spirit" are references to the trinitarian god, a false god, NOT the God of the bible. Therefore, as I see it, any form of theology that acknowledges three separate, distinct, individual, independent deities, divinities, or gods is acknowledging the trinity with its triune god and is denying the one and only true God of the bible.

Steve · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 09 Jun 2002 Posts: 146

OK Eugene, you are correct I read into your statement something you did not say. now here is what you did say:

Mickey · Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2002 7:02 am Post subject:

Steve, regarding Eugene's quote:

Eugene Shubert · Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2002 7:24 pm Post subject: Sloppy Agape

The point of this thread was to protest against those who are misrepresenting my view. The thread title asks, “Where is my error?” I then received a bunch of copy and paste of what I should believe (who says I don’t believe it?) and accusations that I’ve committed the crime of writing things that seem Trinitarian. Where is it written that anything that seems Trinitarian is automatically erroneous?

I’m going to be kind and label this mistreatment I’m receiving as “sloppy agape.”

Steve · pseudo 7th-day Adventist Joined: 09 Jun 2002 Posts: 146

I appreciate your kindness