A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
And according to the Bible this is absolutly true.
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"No man hath seen God at anytime; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18)
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." (John 14:6,7)
"These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly of the Father." (John 16:25)
These texts show that Jesus came to show us the Father. We were separated from the Father by sin. Satan had been spreading lies and the way to the Father had been blocked but Jesus came to set the record straight about His Father and to show us the way back to the Father.
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"And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them..." (2Cor. 5:18,19)
"For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." (Eph. 2:18)
"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." (Rom. 5:10)
These texts show that Jesus also came to reconcile us back to the Father. It was the relationship to the Father that had been broken by our trangression on His law. Jesus came to bring us back to the Father. And in doing this He showed us the character of the love of the Father.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)
That is absolutely correct! Now, the question is, who is this GOD that Christ became human to reveal? Who is this GOD that we can only know through Christ?
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
God is a SINGULAR person. Who is this SINGULAR person called GOD?
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
The Father IS the one and only true God!
Here's the words of Jesus Himself in which He plainly states that God is the Father and that He came forth (was born) from the Father and not, as you put it the "essence of God" with the connotation that God refers to a corporate group of three gods:
John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
If this is not enough for some, Jesus further clarifies:
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
The phrases "came out from", "came forth from" is the same word and it means origin, physically born. What's really interesting is verse 27 in which Jesus declares that the REASON for the Father's great love for the desciples is that they "believed that I came out from God".
That's how important it is to God the Father that we believe that He really has a Son that He gave up, sacrificed - all because of His matchless love for a world gone mad in rebellion against Him!
"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." (John 5:17,18)
"Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:36)
The Jews understood that for Jesus to be the Son of God would mean that He possessed all the attributes of the Father, therefore making Him equal with God.
Why then do some feel that Jesus being the litteral Son of God makes Him a lesser being than the Father?
Perhaps they have a different connotation of the word Son that the Jews or Jesus.
The Jews understood that for Jesus to be the Son of God would mean that He possessed all the attributes of the Father, therefore making Him equal with God.
Exactly, Steve! Our trinitarian bretheren, for some reason, are blinded to that fact. They think that because Christ has the same name as God that that automatically makes Him an unbegotten deity that has always had existence as does God, the Father - and unless, in their minds, this theory of theirs is so, then that would automatically make God's Son a "lesser god". Preposterous! Ellen White says that "Jehovah is the name GIVEN to Christ". And this is not just Ellen White's private interpretation. The bible says that as well:
Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus(JEHOVAH IS SALVATION) every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord(JEHOVAH), to the glory of God the Father.
What name is above every name? The name of GOD!!! What is the name of God? JEHOVAH - the existing One! The Father GAVE His NAME to His Son! How much plainer can the sriptures get???
What name is above every name? The name of GOD!!! What is the name of God? JEHOVAH - the existing One! The Father GAVE His NAME to His Son! How much plainer can the sriptures get???
Yes, and I believe this thought is also expressed in John 8:58:
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"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I Am."
There are two beings that are described as self-existent, the Father and the Son. There are two in the counsel of peace (Zech 6:13). And there are two thrones in heaven (Rev. 22:1). And the Bible says that all will be finally subject to the highest of all, the Father (1Cor. 15:28, John 17:3). The Bible also says that to honor the Father we must honor the Son (Phil. 2:10,11). And Jesus inhereted this honor by His being the Son of God (Heb. 1:4-6).
Yes, and I believe this thought is also expressed in John 8:58:
Quote:
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I Am."
Amen! Right on, brother! Christ, God's Son, by virtue of His LITERAL Sonship to God, inherited all of God's attributes including all of the NAMES that God has called Himself which is discriptive of those attributes.
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There are two beings that are described as self-existent, the Father and the Son. There are two in the counsel of peace (Zech 6:13). And there are two thrones in heaven (Rev. 22:1). And the Bible says that all will be finally subject to the highest of all, the Father (1Cor. 15:28, John 17:3). The Bible also says that to honor the Father we must honor the Son (Phil. 2:10,11). And Jesus inhereted this honor by His being the Son of God (Heb. 1:4-6).
Amen again! Let us all proclaim to the glory of the Father that Jesus Christ is LORD!
I think the biblical facts speak for themselves, brother. The trinitarian view has been shown not to stand up to the scrutiny of the bible. Trinity proponents have not proved their case in the slightest. They have not come up with not even one line of scripture defining God as a trinity. Not one line!
I pray that God's Spirit will impress those who are sincere seekers of truth to follow the plain testimony of His word and when they do, they will be lead to love the truth which emphatically states that "There is one God, the Father OF whom are all things" and that life eternal consists in knowing the Father as the "only true God" and knowing Jesus Christ, whom the Father, the "only true God" has sent.
My initial concern was if the pioneers were wrong in their belief about God, why didn't Ellen White tell them directly? And so far no one has proven the pioneers wrong. (My arguments were the same as the pioneers.) So it stands that since the pioneers were correct in there belief about God then the Church has gone astray.
"Follow the Leader" is a dangerous game when dealing with salvation and when the leader is human!!!
"And the people served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the lord, that he did for Israel...And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the Lord, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel." Judges 2:7,10.
This describes what happened in the Adventist church. When the most of the prominent founders had died then Kellogg tried to spread his teachings. But Ellen White was still alive to stand the gap. In addition to her words spoken in direct opposition to Kellogg's teachings, she also said that "we are to repeat the words of the pioneers in our work, who knew what it cost to search for the truth as for hidden treasure, and who labored to lay the foundation of our work." (Ellen White, Review & Herald, May 5, 1905)
Joseph Bates died 1872
James White died 1881
J. N. Andrews died 1883
J. H. Waggoner died 1889
R. F. Cottrell died 1892
Uriah Smith died 1903
"I have had presentations regarding the deceptions that Satan is bringing in at this time. I have been instructed that we should make prominent the testimony of some of the old workers who are now dead....The history of the early experiences in the message will be a power to withstand the masterly ingenuity of Satan's deceptions." Letter 99, 1905
Ellen White died 1915
E. J. Waggoner died 1916
David Paulson died 1916
S. N. Haskell died 1922
A. T. Jones died 1923
J. N. Loughborough died 1924
Now there were few if any of the first generation of SDA's when in 1928 Leroy Froom published his landmark book The Coming of the Comforter in which he teaches the Trinity doctrine of which all of the above pioneers were opposed. In writing this book Leroy Froom says: "I was compelled to search out a score of valuable books written by men outside our faith." (Movement of Destiny, p. 322) Also in 1931 the statement of beliefs there was a change. The addition of a statement regarding the Trinity. This is the only official change in our beliefs since the formation of the GC in 1863. (This change was not made official by vote until 1980!)
Again Ellen White says: "The history of the early experiences in the message will be a power to withstand the masterly ingenuity of Satan's deceptions." Letter 99, 1905
The SDA church became Trinitarian because there were no watchmen on the wall. Where are the watchmen now?
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 50 Location: Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 11:21 pm Post subject:
The title of your thread should rather be, How did the SDA finally come to see the light on the triune God? _________________ Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.
The title of your thread should rather be, How did the SDA finally come to see the light on the triune God?
The answer to that question is very simple. The church's transition into the darkness of tradition and superstition of trinitarianism was gradual as is the case with all heresies and apostasies. After the death of Ellen White, at the 1919 conference, certain men tested the waters in trying to push the trinity on the church. They were unsuccessful because the opposition was too stiff. After all, EGW was only dead for four years and there were still some of the pioneers yet alive who knew biblical truth and who knew what the foundation pillars of the church were and they were in no wise about to trade in light for darkness. But within the next ten years, after all of the pioneers died off, entered one very influencial church historian by the name of LeRoy Froom and the movement of the church into the darkness of trinitarianism began in earnest. Froom consulted with people outside of the church for insight on the doctrine of God. In other words, Froom consulted with the fallen Babylon in his search for truth! He got what he was looking for. The church didn't arrive at accepting the trinity by exhaustive bible study and prayer. By 1931, the word "trinity" was first used in the SDA yearbook as part of the fundamentals. But it wasn't officially voted on until 1980.
There's the short answer to your question. Given the history of how this transition occurred, your suggestion for the title of this thread would be highely inappropriate.
The title of your thread should rather be, How did the SDA finally come to see the light on the triune God?
So, my friend are you saying that ALL of the SDA pioneers got this one wrong while the Catholic Church got it right? Even though all of the other doctrines of the Catholic Church are false. Even though the doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all their other beliefs. Did the pioneers get this one wrong? And did Ellen White say this.
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 50 Location: Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 7:23 pm Post subject:
The Bible teaches that there is one God in three persons and that "These three agree in One." 1 John 5:8. The adventist pioneers did not all understand this at first. Truth is progressive. It is what the Bible says that we want. Who cares what the pioneers once believed. What is important is the truth. The Catholic Church did not invent the trinity, the belief that there is One God in Three persons. This is a tenet of the Bible, a statement that we need to accept by faith because God says so. Not something that we imagine that we can take apart and explain. There are many things in the Bible difficult to understand and the trinity is one of them. Eternity will not suffice to explain it. Do we pretend to be able to explain it now? by telling people that there is no such thing as a triune God? That is not even beginning to understanding it but a flat denial of the plainest statements of Holy Writ as found in 1 John 5:8; John 8:58; Rom.9:5; Isaiah 9:6; Rev.1:8 and Heb.1:8 just to mention these! _________________ Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.
The Bible teaches that there is one God in three persons and that "These three agree in One." 1 John 5:8.
While the text says "these three are one" it does not say they are one God. It goes on to say, "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." 1 John 5:11
This says that the God here being talked about is the Father. The rest of the Bible also supports this.
"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God even the Father....And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." 1 Cor. 15:24,28
"Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ," Galatians 1:3 and Ephesians 1:2
"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him." 1 Cor. 8:6
These texts all say that God is the Father, not a trinity
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