A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
There cannot be ALSO ANOTHER TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD. ONLY ONE God can have ALL might. And the bible only cites the Father as the ONLY TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD. But, fine, you say that Christ is ALSO the ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD - OK - now PROVE IT! With Scripture! Please!
I didn't say there was ANOTHER ALMIGHTY GOD--
The thing you can't grasp is that three BEINGS can be ONE in might, in purpose, in motivation, in love, in understanding, in everything--
That of course is totally alien to self centered human nature, so the anti-trinitarian must deny that such a thing can exist.
But there is ONLY ONE DEITY -- the word GOD means DEITY--
And that ONE TRUE GOD is three perfectly unified Beings.
To say anything else is simply denying that Christ is God.
For there IS NO OTHER GOD-- no not in heaven nor on earth--
1 Cor. 8:5-6
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
But to us there is but one God.
Then 1 Corinthians identifies that ONE GOD--
The Father
and the one Lord Jesus Christ.
And yes, Christ is Almighty God with the FATHER.
Isaiah 9.6 speaking of Jesus
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Gen. 17.1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
The ONE WHO SPOKE to Abraham was Christ-- He is the Word-- He is the ONE who reveals the will of GOD (HIS WILL AS WELL AS WELL AS THE FATHER'S WILL) to mankind.
DA.290.003
It was under the trees of Eden that the first dwellers on earth had chosen their sanctuary. There Christ had communed with the father of mankind. When banished from Paradise, our first parents still worshiped in the fields and groves, and there Christ met them with the gospel of His grace. It was Christ who spoke with Abraham under the oaks at Mamre; with Isaac as he went out to pray in the fields at the eventide; with Jacob on the hillside at Bethel; with Moses among the mountains of Midian; and with the boy David as he watched his flocks.
Gen. 35.9
And God appeared unto Jacob again...
35.11
And God said unto him, I am God Almighty
48.3
And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me:,
Remember the Bible says that no man has seen the Father-- It was Christ who appeared and spoke to these patriachs.
Also in Revelation we read the heavenly beings saying:
Rev. 4.8
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
The three holies-- three
But now see who is included in the phrase that "which was, and is and is to come" who is included in THE ALPHA AND OMAGA who is GOD ALMIGHTY.
11.17
Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Now remember 1 Cor. 8:6 said that CHRIST WAS THE ONE LORD!
Rev. 1.7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
1.8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
22.12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
22.13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Last edited by dedication on Sun Aug 11, 2002 1:05 am; edited 1 time in total
In the OT when the word LORD is all capitalized it means "Jehovah". When it is in small letters-the word "Lord", it means master.
In the NT the word "Lord" is "kurios".
The honest one will see that in the NEW TESTAMENT writings where 1 Cor. 8:6 is found-- the word for ONE LORD is one "kurios" and the exact same word is used whenever the phrase Lord God is used in the NT.
I cor. 8:6 says Jesus Christ is the ONE Lord. (KURIOS)
Acts 4.26
The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord (KURIOS), and against his Christ.
So obviously Christ is not the ONE Lord exclusive.
So why should the Father be the ONE TRUE GOD exclusive.
The truth is there is ONE TRUE GOD--
The Father calls the SON-- God
Hebrews 1.8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God is forever and ever
John 20.28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Christ is the true God, just as much as the Father is the true God-- He is not a false god, nor is he a demigod.
Last edited by dedication on Sun Aug 11, 2002 1:32 am; edited 2 times in total
No, the angel's do not have "infinity" their lives are depended upon God, they are not self-existing.
Right, they are not self-existing, but the lives of the unfallen angles will last into infinity for their lives will not be able to computed by time. That's the meaning of infinity. The finally saved will be given immortality which is God's underived, unborrowed, self-existing life. The lives of the saved will then also be infinite - inehaustable! Sorry, dedication, but your argument still fails.
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But (Mickey says) there is not one verse that says that Christ is the ONLY TRUE GOD. There are many verses that show that Christ is divine. No doubt about it. But He's definetly NOT the one true God and Jesus said so Himself in John 17:3. To deny this is either blindness or blatant rebellion. I don't know which, but that's for God to sort out and judge.
The verse DOES NOT SAY Christ is NOT the one true God-- you changing the verse and reading into something into the verse that is based on your own narrow interpretation. That is faulty reasoning based simply on insisting that "ONE GOD" could not possibly mean the unity of three persons.
Of course John 17:3 points to the Father as the ONLY TRUE GOD. Its there in the plainest of language! There's no way that you can include Christ and the Holy Spirit as composing the one God that Jesus emphatically states is His Father. Perhaps that's why you haven't done so! Oh, yes, you SAY SO, but fail to point out in the text where the Son and the Spirit make up the one true God. So, it is yourself that is TRYING to put additional words in the mouth of Jesus, words that He never said nor intended to say.
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Hosea 13.4
Yet I am the LORD (JEHOVAH) thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no Saviour beside me.
Now here we saw three verses that plainly say
1. Jehovah is our Savior
2. There is no other Savior
--NO Savior beside Jehovah.
3. There is no other God-- none else
4. We are to know no other god but Jehovah
I hate to sound like a broken record, but you leave me no choice but to keep repeating myself. Exodus 23:21 and Hebrews 1:4 plainly tell us that Christ the Son is authorized to both use and be identified by the name(s) of God, His Father. So, again, your argument fails to prove that the verses that you cite define God as a trinity. You need something concrete and explicit and that tells the same story as is stated in Fundamental Beliefs #2. Find that scripture and present it, and I'll be most happy to not only give you right in all this debate, but will be most happy to convert to trinitarianism. I cannot be fairer than that. So, give us what we need and that is a "thus saith the Lord" that God is a trinity. A bible-believing christian should not accept anything less than that.
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Yes, ONE THRONE, but that ONE THRONE belongs to the Father, the ONE GOD!
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Whose throne is it, dedication?
Christ says it's his Father's throne.
The Father says it's Christ's throne.
Hebrews 1.8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Dedication, while I can appreciate your zeal and "dedication" and sincerity in defending the trinity doctrine, I must tell you that your bible studies on this subject have not been exhaustive.
Before His incarnation, Christ shared His Father's throne. That throne was not jointly owned by both the Father and the Son. The throne that you are referring to in Hebrews 1:8 is the THRONE OF DAVID that GOD Himself, as part of the plan of salvation, is to GIVE to His Son. That throne and kingdom will last for ever!
In the same manner that Christ shared His Father's throne of the universe, God's saints will share in the Son's throne of the coming kingdom on earth.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
You see? God, the Father's throne is the throne of the universe - for The Father is the Sovereign of the Universe. His Son shares His Father's throne. But Christ will also have His own throne and those of us that are saved and overcome will share the Son's throne. So, you see there are TWO thrones brought to view. The one throne is the exclusive property of the Father in which He permits His Son to share. The second throne is the exclusive property of His Son in which He permits the saints to share.
Your convoluted view teaches that the two infinite divinities that share the one throne constitute the One God! Preposterous! That logic would also have to mean that the saved overcomers, that now possess immortality, that same kind of "life in himself" that God and Christ have and that now share in the Son's throne would all make up One Son of God!!! That's CRAZY! But that's where your logic, taken to its conclusion leads to. God wants us to take His word simply as it reads. Many christians will say that they believe that concept EXCEPT where it pertains to the doctrine of God and the question of the true Sabbath.
Again, Dedication - the BIBLE. We're supposed to be SDA's, the "people of the book". Let's let the "Book" speak and take its plain utterances as our rule of faith and practice - LIKE ELLEN WHITE AND THE OTHER PIONEERS DID and like all the biblical saints did. The time is late, the Lord's coming is very soon. Now is not the time to be kissing up to "babylon" and getting drunk on her wine and ultimately sharing in her fate. Ellen White's councel is to make the BIBLE your ONLY guide. If any doctrine is not in harmony with it, the councel is to shun it. The trinity falls into that category. No one has proved otherwise yet!
The honest one will see that in the NEW TESTAMENT writings where 1 Cor. 8:6 is found-- the word for ONE LORD is one "kurios" and the exact same word is used whenever the phrase Lord God is used in the NT.
I cor. 8:6 says Jesus Christ is the ONE Lord. (KURIOS)
Yes, but this whole KURIOS business that you keep bringing up does nothing to substantiate your definition of God being a trinity. The fact is that Christ inherited, was GIVEN, God's name. Jesus proves it in the 11 verse of John 17 (the very same chapter in which Christ identifies the Father as the ONLY TRUE GOD!)
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
The actual translation of that verse is literally translated like this:
"Holy Father, keep them through thine own name WHICH THOU HAS GIVEN ME, that they may be one, as we are."
If this truth is accepted and believed - that all the names of God are GIVEN to Christ, then even trinitarians would have to admit that Christ is NOT the ONLY TRUE GOD ALONG with the Father but that the Father is exclusively and ALONE the ONLY TRUE GOD, who has given to His ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, His own excellent name!
So, in conclusion, yes, Christ is called the one Kurios, sure He's called Jehovah, sure He's called God but the REASON WHY, if folks want to be HONEST, should be noted and in Exodus 23:21, Hebrews 1:4, and John 17:11, that REASON is provided - and that is that God, who is the FATHER has GIVEN His most excellent name unto His Son so that His Son has the authority to speak in and identify with the name of God! This is bible truth and it so beautifully depicts the wonderful, close, loving Father/Son relationship of our great God and Supreme Ruler of the Universe with His LITERAL ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, who He (God, the Father) willingly sacrificed out of His wondrous and inexplicable LOVE for you and me.
Let us adore and worship the Son of God to the glory of God the Father!
I shall leave you to your denial that Christ is God.
It's a waste of time--
There is MUCH MUCH MORE to show that Christ is truly the TRUE GOD.
God is ONE--
God reveals Himself IN PERSON in the Person Christ.
God reveals Himself IN PERSON in the Person of the Holy Spirit.
God the Father is also a PERSON.
Yet they are ONE GOD.
Of course you, with your concept that God must be like humans cannot understand any of that--
So I will leave you in your denial of Christ as God--
However you will NEVER CONVINCE me of that -- to me it is blasphemy--
Your concept is pure paganism-- with a "supreme" god, producing and controling lesser gods.
God reveals Himself IN PERSON in the Person Christ.
Exactly! God reveals HIMSELF through His Son, Jesus Christ.
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God reveals Himself IN PERSON in the Person of the Holy Spirit.
Exactly! God reveals HIMSELF PERSONALLY through HIS Spirit.
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God the Father is also a PERSON.
Of course HE is!
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Yet they are ONE GOD.
Absolutely NOT! Its not THEY that are one God, its HE that is One God!
You see, Dedication, the heresy that you continue to embrace, by your own very words above you tie in the word God with the word "Himself". That word, believe it or not, denotes a SINGULAR PERSONAGE! To be consistent with your tri-theology, the statements that you made above should have been written like this:
"God reveals Themselves IN PERSON in the Person Christ."
"God reveals Themselves IN PERSON in the Person of the Holy Spirit."
Your theology tells us that God is NOT a "HE", but rather is a "THEY". For you say that THEY make up the ONE God! So, make up your mind, Dedication. Tell us plainly, once and for all - is God a HE as the Bible teaches or is God a THEY as you and babylon teach???
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Of course you, with your concept that God must be like humans cannot understand any of that--
So I will leave you in your denial of Christ as God--
However you will NEVER CONVINCE me of that -- to me it is blasphemy--
Your concept is pure paganism-- with a "supreme" god, producing and controling lesser gods.
What a shame and how sad indeed that you prefer the paganistic worship of multiple gods over the simple biblical testimony that there is but One God, the Father. How sad indeed that you harden yourself either in rebellion or Laodicean blindness against the one and ONLY TRUE God which is the Father (John 17:3) and prefer babylonian tri-theism.
You say that there is much more to show from the bible that God is a trinity but along with NOT showing "much more", you haven't shown ANYTHING from scripture which defines God as three distinct separate and independent deities all totally equal in power, character, nature, thought and age.
Every single point that you raised in defense of the trinity has been effectually refuted by the scriptures. The trinity doctrine has been shown to not stand up to the scrutiny of the scriptures in the same exact manner that those who claim that Sunday is the Lord's Day and not the 7th Day Sabbath cannot stand up to that same scrutinizing Light. Both of those doctirines originate from the same source. One glaring inconsistency is to see how some that claim to "keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" have planted their feet in both camps, with one foot championing God's fourth commandment, but yet with the other foot, in carrying on this adulterous affair with babylon, break God's first commandment by worshipping at the feet of a false tri-thiestic god. This is what your trinity god is all about, Dedication - the worship of three gods, the worship of multiple gods, tri-theism - this is paganism.
I pray that you ultimately will yield to the prompting of God's Spirit and accept the truth that there is but One God, the Father, who so loved this world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 50 Location: Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 11:34 pm Post subject:
Mickey! You are denying the full deity of Christ. It is the bottom line of all your posts. Christ was ever God and in the Highest sense. This means that He was always a distinct person!
Should we reject the declarations of inspiration because our theories do not harmonize with them?
"Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forever." 5 B.C.1126.
Do we need a theologian here in order to appreciate this simple declaration? It will take eternity to study this theme and yet eternity will not suffice. There will always be new discoveries to be made about this stupendous truth. Please Mickey, give it up whatever it is that stops you from accepting this simple declaration. What will we argue before God before His tribunal when he brings this plain statement to our attention again? I want to be able to say to Him, Lord I have always believed this statement to be the truth and nothing but the truth and I have not added to or taken away one iota from it!
Let us be careful that by rejecting these clear statements, which shed light on the obscure ones, we may be guilty of giving the appearance that we are telling the Lord: Let me tell you how to teach Your message!
God forbid!~ _________________ Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.
Mickey! You are denying the full deity of Christ. It is the bottom line of all your posts. Christ was ever God and in the Highest sense. This means that He was always a distinct person!
No, I am not denying the full deity of Christ, brother. The divinity of Christ is just as true as His literal Sonship to the Father. Certainly, Christ has ever been God in the highest sense and always was a distinct person. Being the literal Son of God doesn't make Him any less God or any less a distinct person than you being the son of your human father makes you any less human or any less of a distinct person. The problem with trinitarian thinking is that they can't seem to grasp the truth that Christ is both divine and the literal Son of God and that being so doesn't detract one iota from His divinity. Christ is the divine Son of God and has been so since the day He was begotten way back in the ages of eternity past.
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Should we reject the declarations of inspiration because our theories do not harmonize with them?
Absolutely not! Therefore why do trinitarians do exactly that - reject the declarations of inspiration that there is but ONE GOD, the FATHER (1 Corinthians 8:6.)? Why do trinitarians reject the emphatic declarations of Jesus Himself that the Father is the "only true God" (John 17:3)? Why do trinitarians reject the emphatic declaration of Jesus that God (the Father) loved this world so much that He gave His "only begotten Son"..." (John 3:16)? Why do trinitarians reject the emphatic declarations of Jesus who said that He received His "underrived", "unborrowed", "life original", "life in Himself" from God the Father (John 5:26)?
You're right, my brother. We should NOT reject these plain biblical declarations in favor of accepting the traditions of "Babylon".
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What will we argue before God before His tribunal when he brings this plain statement to our attention again?
I have the same question! What will trinitarians say at that tribunal when God the Father asks them why they refused to believe that He is the "only true God" and that He "gave His only begotten Son" for their salvation?
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I want to be able to say to Him, Lord I have always believed this statement to be the truth and nothing but the truth and I have not added to or taken away one iota from it!
Then you will need to give up this trinitarian nonsense and stick with the plain utterances of the holy scriptures which emphatically declare that God is a singular Person and not a composite three-fold trinity.
Where does the bible say that God is a trinity? Where does Sister White teach that God is a trinity?
If you can point me to direct scriptures that plainly teach that God is a trinity as they plainly teach that the 7th day is the Sabbath, and that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, then I'm willing to accept the trinity as biblical truth. But if you cannot, then why should I accept as biblical truth that which you cannot cite from the bible? Make sense?
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Posts: 50 Location: Abbotsford, B.C. Canada
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 7:46 pm Post subject:
A man was once talking against the Spirit of Prophecy, and telling how easy SDAs were deceived; how deluded they were; that their teachers got up and told them certain things, and they just swallowed them down whole. I said to myself, that I wished he would try it; try to get things down there that way. It is a fact that SDAs are hard to lead. I am glad of it in one way. I want every SDA to be so hard to lead that nobody in the universe can lead him but Jesus Christ. Yes sir. But oh, brethren, let us get where it will not be nearly so hard for Him to lead us. But I am glad that they are so hard to lead that nobody can do it but the Lord. Let us get into that place as soon as possible, and then let us be led as easy as a lamb by Him, by the Lamb of God that He is! (quoted from the 1893 General Conference Bulletin, p.11 by brother A.T. Jones.)
I am afraid, that what this brother feared is happening right before our eyes. Some of us have become so hard to teach that even the Lord Himself cannot teach them! Is it me? Is it you?
P.S. Mickey I have, and I am not the only one, already mentioned 1 John 5:8; Isaiah 9:6; Rev.1:8; Heb.1:8; Rom.9:5; John 8:58; etc etc. and the three persons present at His baptism in the Jordan. _________________ Believing unto righteousness Rom.10:10.
P.S. Mickey I have, and I am not the only one, already mentioned 1 John 5:8; Isaiah 9:6; Rev.1:8; Heb.1:8; Rom.9:5; John 8:58; etc etc. and the three persons present at His baptism in the Jordan
OK, my brother, lets take a look at the scriptures cited above and let's see if they define God as a trinity.
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
Where does the above verse say that God is composed of three divine coeternal coeval beings? It doesn't! Certainly 1 John 5:8 doesn't constitute explicit scripture defining God as a trinity.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Where does the above scripture define God as being composed of three divine coeternal, coeval beings? It doesn't! The Son that God gave is called the "mighty God" NOT the ALMIGHTY God! This Son that God gave is called the everlasting Father - but He's NOT God the Father who is "above all". He is the everlasting Father in the sense of being a Father of those of us that He has created and redeemed. He refers to us His children as the children that God the Father has given Him. Certainly Isaiah 9:6 dosen't constitute explicit scripture defining God as a trinity.
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
This verse does NOT refer to Jesus. It refers to God the Father. Revelation 1:4-5 brings this to view:
Revelation 1:4-5 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Grace and peace is being sent from Him which is, and which was, and which is to come AND from Jesus Christ. So, it is clear that He which is, and which was, and which is to come is NOT the same person as Jesus Christ. Now its true that Christ has all power and all authority in heaven and earth - BUT, it must be remembered that this "all power" was given to Him by God.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
So, who really is the absolute Almighty? The One who GIVES the power or the One who receives it? So, Neither does Revelation 1:4 define God as a trinity.
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
The deity of Christ was NEVER in question, my brother. What's in question is the trinity doctrine. Verse 9 is even more compelling:
Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even]thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
The Father is the God of the Son. But the Son is NOT the God of the Father! Again, brother, Hebrews 1:8 makes no mention of God being a trinity.
Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
There's no trinity doctrine in this verse either. Paul is discussing Israel after the flesh through whom Christ came being blessed of God forever! Where can you possibly see three persons in one God here???
And finally:
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Nobody denies Christ's pre-incarnate existence or His divinity. Assuming His Father's name as "I am" is also quite appropriate. For He is the SON of God, inheriting God's most excellent name (Hebrews 1:4). The Son of God is invested with the name of God, His Father.
Exodus 23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
Jehovah is the name of God. Ellen White states that "Jehovah is the name GIVEN to Christ". Christ, the Son of God inherited the excellent name of God. Therefore, Christ has the authority to identify with and use the name of His Father. So, here we go again, AB - another citation of scripture proving Christ's divinity - which we who are non-trinitarians fully agree with you on - but yet again, another cited scripture sorely lacking the credentials defining God as a trinity!
As for the "three persons present at His baptism at the Jordan" - I already addressed that issue and have conclusively proven that a trinity was not brought to view there at all. I even brought in a quote, a most untrinitarian quote from Ellen White totally decimating the trinitarian concept in that scenario. So, my brother, not only are you disbelieving the scriptures, you are also disbelieving the SOP regarding this matter. The bottom line: you have not proven not even the slightest hint that the bible defines God as a trinity.
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