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Posted: Fri May 31, 2002 9:27 pm Post subject: Can we say that the heavenly trio is a trinity and triune?
Eugene wrote:
Quote:
I always understood the word Godhead to mean the heavenly trio of three living persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I probably got that from my SDA upbringing:
That's understandable. I was taught by my upbringing that the Godhead meant the three separate individual divine persons that composed one God. However, as I studied the bible, I found that the bible defines the Godhead as God, the Father exclusively. The word "Godhead" only appears three times in the New Testament and if you examine the context in which the word is used, it will be seen that the word refers to God. And the bible always refers to and identifies the Father as God.
Now regarding the following quote from Ellen White:
Quote:
The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. —Counsels on Health, page 222.
The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power. —The Desire of Ages, p. 671.
First of all it is interesting to note that in Ellen White's original quote, she doesn't capitalize the word "Themselves" nor "Third Person". This was altered by those in the church that were pushing for the doctrine of the trinity to gain acceptance as a fundamental belief. Secondly, as regarding her quote, Ellen White states that "The Godhead" was stirred with pity for the race. This sentence does no injustice to the biblical truth when understood that the Godhead is the Father. For in John 3:16, Jesus Himself says that "God so loved the world that He gave..." So, in like manner, in Ellen White's quote, she is saying there that God the Father was so stirred with pity and love for the human race that He gave His Son and in giving His Son, those that accept this marvelous and matchless Gift, through His Spirit become co-laborers with God and Christ in the work of salvation. Through the Holy Spirit, God and Christ gave THEMSELVES in another form in the carrying out of the work of salvation. Through the saved human agencies who carry forward the gospel and through the ministry of the angels, the work of the Holy Spirit is actualized. For the Spirit of God works through them. It was thus that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit gave themselves. It wasn't three Gods that gave themsevles. It was THE ONE God who gave HIMSELF through and in the person of His Son, who also submitted to His Father's will as well as love for the human race in the work of salvation. The Holy Spirit, who is NOT a separate God/deity, but an integral part of the person of God the Father - His invisible personal presence, is also active and an integral part of the outworking of the plan of salvation. The Holy Spirit is surely the "third person of the Godhead". God is personified through His Spirit in an omnipresent way. We can feel and sense many times the presence of God - yet God is not bodily present with us - He's sitting on His throne in the Holy of Holies in Heaven, yet He is personally present with us by His Spirit. Ellen White's usage of the phrase "third person of the Godhead" is not tantamount to 'third divine being of the trinity". They really are not the same. However, one fact may be noted. The non-trinitarian view of Ellen White and the other pioneers hold to the full divinity of Christ as do those that embrace the trinity. Even James White, Ellen's husband noted the commonality of the two sides where it pertains to the divinity of Christ.
So, to answer your following question:
Quote:
Can we say that the heavenly trio is a trinity and triune?
I would have to say "no". For notice the difference in the definition of God given by the trinity doctrine and by the word of God:
The trinity doctrine says:
"There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons."
The word of God says:
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2002 9:11 am Post subject: Re: The English Language
Eugene asks:
Quote:
Capitalized or not, why does the phrase, third person of the Godhead not imply that the Godhead is composed of at least three persons?
The phrase does imply that. For me, the focal point is not on the phrase, "third person of the Godhead" but on the word Godhead itself. Godhead refers to God, the Father exclusively, not to a conglomeration of persons - unless you can prove from the bible that it does. The reason I believe why Ellen White didn't originally capitalize "third person" is because she wasn't referring to a separate deity apart from God the Father in so doing.
The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power. —The Desire of Ages, p. 671.
Mickey,
Do you have any physical evidence that the first printing of The Desire of Ages didn’t have the Third Person of the Godhead capitalized? And do you have letters, articles, testimonies or reports, dated in Ellen White’s time or shortly thereafter, that complain about the capitalization of the Third Person of the Godhead in The Desire of Ages? Or is it your theory that nobody noticed and complained until recent years?
Do you have any physical evidence that the first printing of The Desire of Ages didn’t have the Third Person of the Godhead capitalized? And do you have letters, articles, testimonies or reports, dated in Ellen White’s time or shortly thereafter, that complain about the capitalization of the Third Person of the Godhead in The Desire of Ages? Or is it your theory that nobody noticed and complained until recent years?
I can point you to a web site that notes the evidence of certain alterations in EGW's writings including the one in question.
Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the third person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power. (Desire of Ages, p. 671, 1898 edition)
The above websites discuss these issues.
Additionally, the same phrase "third person of the Godhead" was used by Ellen White in other of her books and publications without capitalization. This I've seen for myself from the Ellen G. White Estate. A few examples:
The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.-- (Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) )
Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the third person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power. (The Faith I Live By, page 52, paragraph 6)
The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the third person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fulness of divine power. (Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, November 19, 1908, paragraph 5 Article Title: Christ's Most Essential Gift to His Church)
For the sake of brevity, I'll stop here. But, as you can see, even as late as 1908, seven years before her death, she doesn't use capitalization for "third person". And if she ever did, why wasn't she consistent?
But in the final analysis, trinitarian or non-trinitarian, both sides believe in and accept the full divinity of Christ and are trusting in Him for salvation. And that is essentially what is necessary. However, it is an interesting topic.
You are inconsistent. Your logic is muddled, confused and irrational.
One question only: do you desire to discuss this issue or do you prefer to hurl insults? If the answer is the latter, then please say so and I'll be happy to withdraw from this meaningless conversation.
And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.
Thus they say-- THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD-- and Christ is not that true God.
However, John 17:3 does not say that Jesus is not the only true God. To come to that conclusion is FAULTY reasoning. It's based on this rationalization--
--since the Father and Jesus are two persons, and this verse says the Father is the "only true God", this naturally would exclude Jesus as being the "only true God".
But that is faulty reasoning and simply insisting that ONE GOD could not possibly be three persons.
Now let's explore this further.
If you ask a child, "If Jesus is a god, but is not the True God, what kind of God is Jesus? Without going to any other passage than John 17:3, the child would always say, "Jesus is a false god".
If John 17:3 merely read, the "only God" (as opposed to "only true God"), it would be bad enough for the anti-trinitarian. But the way John 17:3 is worded represents a "worst case scenario" for it reads, "ONLY TRUE GOD", for they admit Jesus is still called God in scripture.
This forces the anti-trinitarians to admit that John 17:3 somehow has to allow Jesus to be "TRUE god" while somehow still denying he is the "true GOD".
But placing the exclusive meaning on the phrase that the Father is the "only true God" forces that Jesus is NEITHER "true" or "God" in any sense. In the end the way they want to read the verse is that Jesus is neither A (TRUE GOD) or B (FALSE GOD) but C (a TRUE DEMI-GOD).
This kind of interpretation of scripture is like driving a car with your foot on the brakes and the gas at the same time. (car spins in circles) They actually argue that while Jesus is not "true God" yet will admit that Jesus is "true" and "god" thus turning him into a "true demi-god". In fact they will even call Jesus God, but never True God or Almighty God… as if any of these terms mean anything different.
NOW let's look at other verses where GOD SAYS HE ALONE IS--
Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone
Yet such language did not exclude Jesus Christ from also being the creator of all things:
Colossians 1:16,17 For by Him (Christ) all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible
If we excluded Jesus Christ from the function of creator because of the language of Isa 44:24, it would be the same bad logic anti-trinitarians use to exclude Jesus Christ from the phrase "only true God" in John 17:3.
Now look at this verse:
1 Timothy 6:15-16 He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
He is the ONLY SOVEREIGN!
Who is the only sovereign?
The same ONE who is King of Kigns and Lord of lords....
Now in Revelation 19 we see Christ with those titles!
Now the anti-trinitarians really have to back peddle--
THIS VERSE says Jesus Christ is the ONLY SOVERIGN.
According to the anti-trinity logic, if John 17:3 excludes Jesus from being called true God, then 1 Tim 6:15-16 excludes the Father from being called Sovereign. (Yet the Father is called our Sovereign in 1 Cor 15:27.)
These types of verses occur again and again--
For you see-- there is ONLY ONE GOD, and THE FATHER, THE SON and the HOLY SPIRIT are that ONE GOD.
1 Timothy 6:15-16 He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
Remember that Revelation 19 has Christ riding forth on a white horse, His name is the Word of God and on His thigh a name written
"KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."
Now 1 Timothy says HE ALONE possesses immortality!
If we apply the same bad logic that anti-trinitarians use to exclude Jesus Christ from the phrase "only true God" in John 17:3, we could also exclude the Father from being immortal based upon the language of 1 Tim 6:15-16.
Now trinitarians know that when 1 Timothy 6:15-16 says that Jesus alone possesses immortality, also means God the Father also possesses immortality.
But following anti-trinitarian logic as they apply it to John 17:3 saying John 17:3 excludes Jesus from being true God, then 1 Tim 6:15-16 excludes the Father from being immortal.
Another favorite text of the anti-trinitarians is 1 Cor. 8:6
"For us there is one God, the Father (they usually stop there)
of whom are all things and we for Him and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live."
According to the anti trinitarian logic, they take the first part and say the ONE GOD is the Father and it excludes Jesus from being called one true God.
Yet to follow that same logic we would have to take the words ONE LORD
in Jude 4, Eph 4:4, 1 Cor 8:4,6, Mt 6:24 to exclude the Father from being called our Lord. (Yet the Father is called our Lord hundreds of times.)
The LORD our GOD-- is a phrase used hundreds of times as well.
And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.
That is indeed a "big text" and thus far, all the trinitarian wrangling has been to no avail in their futile attempt to disprove the very words of Christ in which He emphatically states that the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD. Jesus is NOT the only true God. This doesn't make Him a false god either. Now, this is the epitome of trinitarian "faulty reasoning". They reason that because the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD, according to scripture, then those that would actually have the nerve to believe the scripture serve to demote Christ to a "false god"! What they fail to get through their heads is that Christ is NOT God in the same exact sense as is the Father. As Ellen white says, Christ is God in infinity, but NOT in personality! Christ is God's SON, born of God, inheriting all of God's divine attributes (Hebrews 1:4), being filled with all of God's fullness (Colossians 2:9), while the Father NEVER had a beginning, was born of NO-ONE and is the SOURCE of ALL life and being. But the trinitarians say "no, the Father is NOT the ONLY TRUE GOD, there are TWO OTHER GODS that ALSO are the source of all life and being. But trinitarians have a big problem. They have no bible text(s) to prove their idol theory. However, the non-trinitarian has ALL the scriptural armaments in the biblical arsenal that proves that God, the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD and is the SOURCE of ALL life and being. A little demonstration follows:
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
This is another "big text" that the trinitarian keeps stumbling over. This "big text" discloses TWO very important truths:
A.)The Father is the ONE GOD.
B.)The Father is the SOURCE of ALL ("OF WHOM ARE ALL THINGS")
Does it say that both the Father and the Son are the ONE GOD? NO! It says that the Father ALONE is the ONE GOD! If anyone fails to read that in the above text, then I suggest they re-admit themselves into elementary school! Now, along with that, does the text say that Christ is also the Source of ALL? No! It simply says that Christ is the Agent through which the Father's creation was effected!
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
The ONE GOD that is the Source of All and is Above All is the FATHER!
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Its God the Father who is above all, above Christ. God the Father is the Supreme Ruler who has "put all things" under the Son. Yet the Son remains under the supreme authority of the Supreme Ruler, the Father!
Quote:
If you ask a child, "If Jesus is a god, but is not the True God, what kind of God is Jesus? Without going to any other passage than John 17:3, the child would always say, "Jesus is a false god".
Of course! Because he/she is but a child and doesn't know any better and the way that the question is phrased would only confuse a child or one with a child's mentality. Then again, if you ask a child if the Son of God is really God's Son, the child would say yes and NOT say no, He's a play-actor!!! The fact is that Jesus is NOT Jehovah, the self-existing one. The bible calls Him the "Son of God". Yes, He's divine. Yes, He can speak in the Father's name (Jehovah) - But He's NOT the Almighty God. He's the Son of the Almighty God. Ellen White makes it clear that "Jehovah is the name GIVEN to Christ". Hebrews 1:4 tells us that Christ INHERITED His Father's "excellent name"!!!
The bible teaches that there is ONE TRUE GOD and that ONE TRUE GOD is the Father. Trinitarians teach that there are THREE TRUE GODS that make up the one true God - now talk about driving a car with your feet on both the brakes and the accelerator!!! Its easy to see how trinitarians are so dizzy when it comes to the doctrine of God - between driving around in wicked sharp circles and being drunk on Babylon's intoxicating wine mixture, they can't tell up from down, left from right and the difference between one and three and three and one!
Quote:
Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone
Yet such language did not exclude Jesus Christ from also being the creator of all things:
Colossians 1:16,17 For by Him (Christ) all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible
If we excluded Jesus Christ from the function of creator because of the language of Isa 44:24, it would be the same bad logic anti-trinitarians use to exclude Jesus Christ from the phrase "only true God" in John 17:3.
Not quite. For the text in Isaiah tells the truth. God the Father is the ONLY and ULTIMATE creator!
Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
It was the Father that instructed His Son "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness. The creation belongs to the FATHER. The ideas are the FATHER's. The Son worked the WILL of the FATHER in the creation of the universe. The fact that God designed that His Son should be the agent in the creation is absolutely NO justification for the trinity doctrine, is absolutely NO justification to make the false and presumptious claim that the Son and the Father constitute the one true God. The "big text" that the trinitarians need, the great missing text or link that they so desperately need but do not have and cannot manufacture is a text that says something like the following:
"And this is life eternal, that they might know US, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, who WE have sent".
"But to us there is but one God: the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit of whom are all things, and one Lord Jesus Christ by whom are all things"
Of course these kinds of a texts would make no sense unless perhaps to those who are driving in circles with both feet on the brakes and the accelerator and in their hands sipping through a straw, that good-ole intoxicating babylonian brew!
Quote:
Now look at this verse:
1 Timothy 6:15-16 He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
He is the ONLY SOVEREIGN!
Who is the only sovereign?
The answer: ONLY THE FATHER! No man has seen God. But plenty of men have seen His Son! (John 1:18, 1John 4:12)
Only the Father has immortality in its most absolute sense. Christ the Son is immortal having inherited that divine attribute from His Father (Hebrews 1:4) (John 5:26)
Quote:
The same ONE who is King of Kigns and Lord of lords....
Now in Revelation 19 we see Christ with those titles!
Now the anti-trinitarians really have to back peddle--
THIS VERSE says Jesus Christ is the ONLY SOVERIGN.
According to the anti-trinity logic, if John 17:3 excludes Jesus from being called true God, then 1 Tim 6:15-16 excludes the Father from being called Sovereign. (Yet the Father is called our Sovereign in 1 Cor 15:27.)
Nice try, but not quite! 1 Timothy 6:15-16 refers to the FATHER!!! Let's go back to verse 14 and look at the entire thought and message:
1 Timothy 6:14-16 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Paul is saying here that it is Jesus, God's Son who will show WHO is the blessed and ONLY Potentate (Supreme Ruler) WHO is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and WHO ONLY has immortality and that dwells in the unapproachable light whom no man can approach unto and whom NO MAN HAS EVER SEEN NOR CAN SEE! This is talking about God the FATHER. No man has seen the Father, but ONLY the Son has seen Him. And many have seen the Son. And its the Son's position to show forth the Father.
As for Revelation 19, and the NAME written on His vesture and on his thigh being KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS - this is interesting. It doesn't say that this is the name of Jesus. For if one but reads a few verses behind, we see the following:
Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
The symbolism in Revelation 19 is pointing to the armies of God led out and captained by Christ as the agent that is prosecuting GOD's warfare against evil. Christ is riding out IN THE NAME OF GOD, HIS FATHER, carrying the BANNER OF HIS FATHER'S NAME who is THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS! Christ, the Son whose "name is called The Word of God" prosecutes this final war in the NAME OF GOD HIS FATHER who is the ONLY POTENTATE (The Supreme Ruler), the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Now, who REALLY has to do the back-peddaling???
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These types of verses occur again and again--
For you see-- there is ONLY ONE GOD, and THE FATHER, THE SON and the HOLY SPIRIT are that ONE GOD
Yes indeed. Those types of verses do keep occuring again and again - every single one of them proving that:
If we apply the same bad logic that anti-trinitarians use to exclude Jesus Christ from the phrase "only true God" in John 17:3, we could also exclude the Father from being immortal based upon the language of 1 Tim 6:15-16.
Now trinitarians know that when 1 Timothy 6:15-16 says that Jesus alone possesses immortality, also means God the Father also possesses immortality.
But following anti-trinitarian logic as they apply it to John 17:3 saying John 17:3 excludes Jesus from being true God, then 1 Tim 6:15-16 excludes the Father from being immortal.
The problem is that trinitarians are wrong! 1 Timothy 6:15-16 is NOT talking about Jesus Christ as the Being that ONLY has immortality. The text is stating that God, the King Eternal, the Father is the one who ALONE has immortality!
Again the context SHOULD be taken from verse 14:
1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Verse 15:Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
This is stating that Jesus in time WILL SHOW WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTATE, THE KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
The text states that Jesus WILL SHOW who that blessed potentate is. It doesn't say that Jesus IS that blessed potentate and king of kings and lord of lords!
Verse 16:Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
This is a continuation of verse 15 in which divine inspiration is stating that Jesus in time WILL SHOW who is this Being that ONLY HATH IMMORTALITY and for whom NO MAN HATH SEEN. And this Being is the Father EXCLUSIVELY!
John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
No man has ever seen God, who is the Father. Lots of men and women have seen the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Many have also seen the pre-incarnate Son of God as well. But nobody has ever seen God. I'd like to see how the trinitarians equate these texts with Christ also being the "unseen" God. If the bible says such a thing, then yes, they would have somewhat of a case to defend their view with. But their case is lost for no such text exists. Jesus is NOT the Almighty God, He is the Son of the Almighty God, sent into this world to SHOW and declare this great and Almighty God who loved this world so much that HE GAVE HIS ONLY begotten Son!
So, trinitarians THINK THEY KNOW what 1 Timothy 15-16 is saying but they have been proven to be in gross error and they make this gross error a pillar of a counterfeit faith in an unknown and false trinitarian god.
Another thing that trinitarians refuse to come to grips with is that Christ, being God's Son and inheriting God's name and attributes of divinity can go out in the name of and in using the very name of God. That's why Christ could say to Moses "I am the God of thy Fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob". Because the name of God is in Christ. God says so Himself:
Exodus 23:20-21 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
So, Christ can go by the name of God, Jehovah, King of kings and Lord of lords because the name of God is in Him having inherited God's "excellent name" from God the Father Himself - Hebrews 1:4
Sadly, the trinitarian viewpoint melts God away into, as Ellen White put it, "nothingness".
Another favorite text of the anti-trinitarians is 1 Cor. 8:6
"For us there is one God, the Father (they usually stop there)
of whom are all things and we for Him and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live."
According to the anti trinitarian logic, they take the first part and say the ONE GOD is the Father and it excludes Jesus from being called one true God.
Yet to follow that same logic we would have to take the words ONE LORD
in Jude 4, Eph 4:4, 1 Cor 8:4,6, Mt 6:24 to exclude the Father from being called our Lord. (Yet the Father is called our Lord hundreds of times.)
The LORD our GOD-- is a phrase used hundreds of times as well.
1 Corinthians 8:6 is a powerful quote totally decimating and devestating to the trinitarian heresy. It plainly states that the ONE GOD OF WHOM ARE ALL THINGS, is the Father!!! The "one Lord Jesus Christ" is God's Son - by whom God the Father created all things! The "one Lord Jesus Christ" is NOT the "One God, the Father". Trinitarians may writhe and twist all they want (sort of reminicient of the prophets of Baal), to force their three-gods into the arena of bible truth, but it won't stick!
The Father is called LORD, but never Lord. If the trinitarian is honest, he/she will acknowledge the differentiation between the two. Are they honest? Time will tell.
God the Father is LORD - Jehovah, the self-existing One. Christ is Lord - master, superintendent of household, prince. What is a prince? The SON of a KING, NOT the king himself!
Oh, many are the roads that the trinitarian will try to lead God's flock into joining in with their heresy but the light of God's word, each and every time, shows all those roads to be a DEAD END!
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