A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 9:16 pm Post subject: free will???
What exactly is free will? How can we have "free" will if "god" is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and all the other omnis out there? If god created us, then we have no free will.
What determines what we do?
you could say our environment- well, we're born and we can't control our environment. When we CAN control it somewhat, we can never fully control it... and what makes us want to control it and how we want to control it is shaped by our environment, so our environment is still controling us.
you could say genes- we can't control our genes. simple enough.
you could say our "soul" (whatever that is... our character, personality, whatever). Well, God created that so HE controled what our character/personality/whatever would be so HE is indirectly controling our actions.
The ONLY way that humans could have "free will" would be if our personality/character/etc. had always existed and god hadn't created it... and our environment nor our genes had ANYTHING to do with our "will".
and anyway, we can't fly to mars can we? we can't know everything can we? we forget things. We can't stop going to the bathroom can we?
so let me get this straight. God comes in and says "human, you have free will. however, I put in a million restrictions on you. it is physically impossible for you to teleport to mars for example. You will have to learn and re-learn, and re-learn everything because if you only hear it one time you will forget. You will do things according to your personality, which i control, or it will be shaped by your environment and genes, both of which I control. ... but you still have free will!"
"and if you don't do what i tell you, you will go to eternal tourture and suffering at the hands of this little thing called the devil... which i created"
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 68 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:11 am Post subject: Re: free will???
TheAlphaWolf wrote:
What exactly is free will? How can we have "free" will if "god" is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and all the other omnis out there? If god created us, then we have no free will.
Hi TheAlphaWolf
Free will is the ability to choose between two or more options within obvious constraints.
Omnipotence means that God has the power to do whatever he chooses to do. God being able to do whatever God wants to do is not logically incompatible with human beings having free will. In fact, God has created human beings with the capacity. So unless one wishes to argue that God is incapable of creating humans with free will then there is no reason to think that humans cannot have it.
Omniscience means that God knows everything that there is to know. There is no logical reason why God cannot know everything that there is to know and human beings still have free will.
Omnipresence means that God is present everywhere at all times. God being present does not logically preclude humans having free will. That would mean that the presence of any other person would necessarily entail you not having free will.
The statement, if God created us then we have no free will is highly debatable. Why should someone creating something mean that that thing cannot have free will? If you wish to assert the truth of the conditional statement you need to demonstrate a logical relationship between the act of creating and the way it mutually excludes free will.
Finally, if you do not have free will, then you have written this against you will. So I guess there is no point in discussing anything because we are only going to be saying what we have been determined to say :-).
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 7:43 pm Post subject: The mind-body problem
TheAlphaWolf wrote:
What exactly is free will?
Free will is consciousness.
TheAlphaWolf wrote:
What determines what we do?
Philosophers call that question "the mind-body problem." The answer is found in Romans 7.
Paul wrote:
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Romans 7:15-25.
ok, god created us right? if god created us and he's omnieverything, then what shapes our decisions was created by him. He set the universe in motion and so he controls our environment (since he first even thought of creating it, he knew where every single proton, neutron, and electron would be and how it would interact with all the other protons neutrons and electrons. so he controlled the environment and our genes. (since he put them there so they would act a certain way). If he also created our "soul", then what makes us decide between this or that is also created by god. He made us be exactly how we would be. If this happens, you'll react this way because that's your personality... your environment/genes changes it too, but that's also controlled by god, so ultimately god is controlling you indirectly.
someone in another forum posted this excellent analogy-
Quote:
A computer programmer can write a program to do any number of things and, assuming that the programmer never makes mistakes, they will always be able to predict the next state of the program given the current state. Similarily, you could view God as a programmer of nature - he created the platform (the universe), the language (laws of physics), and the program(s) (planets/ecosystems/individual lifeforms/etc). Now.. there can be nothing truely random to God, and thus given any state of the programs he can predict the next state. So while you may be like a kitten he wants to coerce onto his lap, in reality you're more like a virtual pet and ultimately as predictable.
and I totally agree. To god we're just a computer program. Computer programs do not have free will
Quote:
Finally, if you do not have free will, then you have written this against you will
I didn't say we don't have free will.
My point is that what I'm guessing YOU believe (being a christian and all) makes no sense. You can't have free will IF you believe god is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, infinite, created EVERYTHING, etc.
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:59 pm Post subject: The laws of physics are not deterministic
AlphaWolf,
You have made it clear that you don't know anything about the fundamental principles of quantum mechanics. The laws of physics are not deterministic. Try to learn some quantum theory and then come back and answer this question:
Suppose you will vote for candidate A or B in the next presidential election. How does God's complete foreknowledge of that future event violate your free choice?
ok, I'll say it again:
A computer programmer can write a program to do any number of things and, assuming that the programmer never makes mistakes, they will always be able to predict the next state of the program given the current state. Similarily, you could view God as a programmer of nature - he created the platform (the universe), the language (laws of physics), and the program(s) (planets/ecosystems/individual lifeforms/etc). Now.. there can be nothing truely random to God, and thus given any state of the programs he can predict the next state. So while you may be like a kitten he wants to coerce onto his lap, in reality you're more like a virtual pet and ultimately as predictable.
You're right, I don't know much about quantum mechanics/theory, but form the little I know, I don't see how they can say it's truly random. They don't know how quarks and gluons and whatever does inside an atom, they just know they exist by smashing together stuff. (right?)
So basically what i'm trying to say is that we know too little to say it truly is random. And isn't the "randomness" just in radioactive decay?
Besides, single atoms DON'T control us. If they did, we would be random too. I don't think even you can say we are random organisms. We are controlled by what trillions of atoms do, and EVEN IF some things are random, the overall thing isn't. Hence radioactive dating.
There is plenty of debate about how determnistic the LAWS of physics are.
ah, so we go back to "can god create a rock so big he cannot lift it?"
if god included human free will, then he is NOT omniscient, etc.
I say god can't create a rock so big he cannot lift it, nor can he create something he cannot predict
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 68 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:02 pm Post subject:
TheAlphaWolf wrote:
Quote:
God built everything to include human free will.
ah, so we go back to "can god create a rock so big he cannot lift it?"
if god included human free will, then he is NOT omniscient, etc.
I say god can't create a rock so big he cannot lift it, nor can he create something he cannot predict
Omniscience means God knows all there is to know. He does not know future free choice decisions because they do not exist to know.
isn't he in all time? he's in the past, present, and future right?
if so, he knows everything and he knows what you're going to do before you do it. You can't change it, that's how it's going to happen.
Otherwise he's not omniscient and present in all times.
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 68 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:39 pm Post subject:
TheAlphaWolf wrote:
isn't he in all time? he's in the past, present, and future right?
if so, he knows everything and he knows what you're going to do before you do it. You can't change it, that's how it's going to happen.
Otherwise he's not omniscient and present in all times.
A good deal of the omni- characteristics have more to do with Greek philosophy than biblical data. You might find it interesting to read some of the literature on free-will theism. Check out, for example, http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=257
Your argument contains assumptions I don't accept as biblical therefore I don't experience the logical problems you raise.
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:20 pm Post subject: Free Will... NOT! ...NOT! and, um, ...oh yeah, ...NOT!
WillieH: Hello Spozz... Grace be unto you...
TheAlphaWolf wrote:
isn't he in all time? he's in the past, present, and future right?
if so, he knows everything and he knows what you're going to do before you do it. You can't change it, that's how it's going to happen.
Otherwise he's not omniscient and present in all times.
WillieH: I agree... can you believe it? I agree with AW! GOD KNOWS ALL and therefore, it has ALREADY HAPPENED, our choices are instruments of His WILL that WILL come down as He has ordained and ALREADY seen (the end from the beginning)... the following verses verify this... (unless, as some here, you prefer the misguided writings of EGW over the bible)....
"....it is NOT IN MAN that WALKETH to DIRECT his STEPS" (Jer 10:23) Therefore, if it is NOT in MAN... than it is in GOD to DIRECT his steps...
"Man's GOINGS are of the LORD.. how can a man UNDERSTAND his own WAY?: (Pro 20:24) Man's goings (life) are OF THE LORD... man cannot even UNDERSTAND his own way... therefore, again, its not up to us, it is up to HIM...
"Hath the POTTER POWER over the CLAY of the SAME LUMP, to make one vessel unto Honor and one vessel unto Dishonor" (Rom 9:21) ....in this verse, the POTTER is the one DOING this... making of the SAME LUMP of CLAY, one vessel honorable, the other dishonorable.. the CLAY is not said to be doing ANYTHING... other than BE that which the POTTER has decided it WILL BE... ....NO...FREE ...WILL...
In the end, it is OUR supposed "FREE WILL" that is to be MORTIFIED in favor of GOD's WILL is it not? "Our Father in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name Thy kingdom come... THY WILL be DONE in Earth as it IS in Heaven.." have you heard this verse before? What is it saying? Is not "done" as in like, ....DOING? Is this verse promoting man's FREE WILL? .....NOT! NOT! NOT!
If you can't see this simple principle, you are indeed veiled unto the truth of GOD's Word...
Quote:
Your argument contains assumptions I don't accept as biblical therefore I don't experience the logical problems you raise.
I have noted above, BIBLICAL references that NEGATE this MYTHICAL, Man-Made, FREE WILL...
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 68 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:25 am Post subject: Re: Free Will... NOT! ...NOT! and, um, ...oh yeah, ...NOT!
WillieH wrote:
Hello Spozz... Grace be unto you...
And to you...
Quote:
If you can't see this simple principle, you are indeed veiled unto the truth of GOD's Word...
There's not much hope for me then... I am humbled to be corresponding with someone who sees with such clarity
Quote:
I have noted above, BIBLICAL references that NEGATE this MYTHICAL, Man-Made, FREE WILL...
Have you checked out the link I provided in my previous message? If not, I encourage you to do so... There are an incredible amount of biblical passages that affirm human free will and God not knowing some of the future.
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