A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.
Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:36 am Post subject: Guessing God....
WillieH: Hello Spozz... Grace be unto you...
I have gone to this link you have provided... IMHO, the carnal mind, using THIS VIEWPOINT, shall see that God is a "guessing God".... (much as Alpha Wolf might percieve Him), and that He has no REAL CONTROL over that which He has created, rather, that He is merely an observer of His Creation... Therefore, if we believe that He is only observing many POSSIBILITIES and does not KNOW and CONTROL the outcomes of those POSSIBILITIES, then we are in BIG TROUBLE... This is by far the MOST DANGEROUS viewpoint that I have read... and I pray for you, that you are not misled by it..
Do YOU seriously think that God did NOT KNOW what Adam was going to call the animals? Or how many displayed miracles it would take to deliver His people? Come on... If you, in fact believe this, How SHORT SIGHTED is GOD in your eyes, and, ...along with that, ...How SHORT-SIGHTED is your view of HIM...
The wordings in these verses to veiled mind and carnal approach will indicate that God is NOT SOVEREIGN...
If God is NOT Sovereign, ...then the future that He has Prophesied is only a POSSIBILITY... That He in scripture states that SIN and DEATH will never be again, in light of this view, can only be a POSSIBLITY... and that His redemption is FOREVER, also can only be a POSSIBILITY... I say PHOOEY on this HOOEY!
This view poses God as quite INFERIOR to the word ALMIGHTY...
Thanks for having a look at the site. Your response hasn't actually dealt with the biblical data offered by Boyd. You just say you don't accept it. I'd be really interested in you taking one of the passages (eg, the one about Abraham and Isaac) and showing how Boyd's interpretation of the text is incorrect.
About sovereignty: God is sovereign. He can make any world he likes. If God chooses to make a world where humans have free will, then who are we to say God can't?
The question is whether the view is biblical or not.
Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:33 am Post subject: Fooled...
WillieH: Hi Spozz... Grace be unto you..
I believe that one scripture settles any arguement against God's Sovereignty and that ALL things are settled and have been SETTLED since the foundation of the World....
Is 46:9-10
(9) "Remember the former things of old, for I am GOD and there is NONE ELSE, I am GOD and there is NONE like ME
(10) "DECLARING the END ...FROM the BEGINNING and from ancient times the THINGS that are NOT YET DONE, saying MY COUNSEL ...SHALL STAND, ...and, I WILL do my ALL MY PLEASURE"
The truth is established via 2 or more witnesses so here is a 2nd verse that attests to my observation of ALL THINGS being settled...
Rev 13:8
"...the Lamb of God SLAIN ...FROM the FOUNDATION of the WORLD"
(I can provide others if you insist)
If YOU can find any "guesswork" in these verses that COVERS the BEGINNING to the END... then shall I reply to this persons CARNAL observations of Scripture...
You may think to choose to fall into his trap... and if you do, your deception IS ordained from the foundation of the World and IS within the foreknowledge of God that you would do so...
It is MAN and His supposed "Free Will" that has brought all the ugliness upon creation that we presently observe and experience... that you cannot or will not see this shows one of 2 things...
(1) you are too prideful to admit that GOD's WILL is the ONLY WILL... or
(2) you are presently veiled by GOD from understanding this truth... (I believe this is the one that applies to you)
ALL THINGS including ALL POWERS in Heaven and earth were created BY HIM and FOR HIM... BY HIM ...ALL THINGS exist... this includes your will, the devil, tsuami's, ford trucks, pencils, ghost busters, New York Yankees, toast, buttons, laughter, the United States ...EVERYTHING!
As I stated in the previous post... if GOD is GUESSING His way through eternity, then we cannot rely on anything that He says will come to pass...
In truth (if you will admit it), GOD already KNOWS what will happen in any life, at any time, to any thing, because it has ALREADY HAPPENED... "..the Lamb of GOD ...SLAIN ...from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD" Only SPIRITUAL eyes can understand that TIME is on-going for us, but IS and ALWAYS HAS BEEN, ...WRITTEN IN STONE to GOD... (The End from the Beginning...) God's foreknowledge is more than his on-going observance of man... for he views man AND TIME, as you or I would a FINISHED painting or song or sculpture... thus: "a day is as a thousand years to the Lord" Notice it says "is as"... not "equal to" ...the spiritual connotation here is, that TIME is inapplicable to GOD...
Spozz... TIME is a SPIRITUAL THING... it is more of a PLACE than anything else... Eternity is not TIME as we know it... it is TIME as GOD KNOWS IT! TIME is the PLACE that Man exists... ETERNITY is the PLACE that GOD EXISTS...
TIME concerning MAN is the PLACE that GOD has chosen for EVIL and SIN and all things CONTRARY to HIS WILL... to exist.. Once HE decides, TIME will CEASE to BE... The END... have you not heard of this? End of what? End of TIME... WHAT THEN? ...ETERNITY!
As this person on Christus Victor Ministries might view all this: ...This cannot be because, Christ was "slain" 2K years ago ...right? That wasnt the foundation of the world... was it?
This simply equates to CARNAL UNDERSTANDING....
In the flesh... carnal men live day to day without a care as to the end... so they, if they believe at all, think God is either just watching, could care less, or is guessing as to what may happen as Man uses and UNFOLDS his "free will"... How could any SPIRITUAL MAN even consider such baloney? How can PROPHECY exist under this type of supervision and direction? How could we depend on this UNSURE GOD? How could anyone that truly has a vision of GOD ALMIGHTY, limit Him and weaken Him in such a way? This is RELIGION in its netherness... what THIS IS: ...Satan taking you back to square one... "ye shall NOT surely die.."
I say that the truly SPIRITUAL MAN (not RELIGIOUS man) is OBSESSED with the END because it is in the END of THIS WORLD (and TIME) that he shall see GOD... for GOD has Prophesied it, and the SPIRITUAL MAN hears and sees it in his/her heart WITHOUT DOUBT...
Well Spozz... if you continue to read up on this "Christus Victor Ministry" baloney, ...as you do... BEWARE of the APPLES (of deception) in His ORCHARD (of CARNAL Fruit that delights the eye... for ADAM, my friend, ...was fooled in the same way)
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 68 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:27 am Post subject: Re: Fooled...
Hi WillieH
Thanks for your reply. I won't be persisting with the conversation because, rather than just stick with the topic, you enter into personal judgments. There is not much point in discussing different points of view if you are going to reduce the discussion to personal attacks.
Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:35 pm Post subject: Staying on Topic?
WillieH: Hi Spozz... grace be unto you...
I cannot see how you view that I have veered off-topic... the words FREE WILL appear in my post...
I had to REPLY to you concerning Christus Victor Ministries... which percieves GOD as an entity that is NOT ALMIGHTY, and that is subject to His own Creation as opposed to the other way around... If you choose to sidestep me, and answer NOT my questions that is your choice... I on the other hand, investigated YOUR suggestions, for I fear not SDA-fed doctrine, I fellowship there time to time...
Seems to be the habit on this forum to sidestep... Eugene refuses to discuss with me, simply because his point of view is established upon EGW and not SCRIPTURE... Are you of the same mind?
I did NOT attack you personally... I pointed out that you are treading on dangerous ground as you side with ideas such as are posed on Christus Victor Ministries... their view:
Also, what you might consider judgements from me, are quotations of the Bible... I judge you not... It's fair to warn you... if I percieve you are setting yourself at harm... you instead see this as a judgement or attack...
So be it... Beware of the LEAVEN of the Pharisees Spozz...
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 68 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:30 am Post subject: Re: Staying on Topic?
WillieH wrote:
I cannot see how you view that I have veered off-topic... the words FREE WILL appear in my post...
When engaged in a conversation about a particular topic, you do not need to say things like, "If you can't see that my point is right then you are blind" (the basic thrust of much of what you say). I'm not saying you didn't mention free will -- just that you went beyond the topic. In a discussion between Christians (or anyone for that matter), it is better to leave personal statements about the other person out of the discussion all together. If you could do that, then I am happy to continue the conversation. The sorts of statements I mean are:
Quote:
You may think to choose to fall into his trap... and if you do, your deception IS ordained from the foundation of the World and IS within the foreknowledge of God that you would do so...
(1) you are too prideful to admit that GOD's WILL is the ONLY WILL... or
(2) you are presently veiled by GOD from understanding this truth... (I believe this is the one that applies to you)
Statements such as these are not on the topic.
To the topic:
Quote:
You may think to choose to fall into his trap... and if you do, your deception IS ordained from the foundation of the World and IS within the foreknowledge of God that you would do so...
1) God can not do anything evil.
2) Deceiving someone is evil.
3) If God has ordained me to be deceived then I have no choice in the matter.
4) Therefore, God is evil and I am not responsible for being deceived.
The view that God foreordains everything leads to an evil god an non-responsible humans.
Free will theists assert that God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc. So to say that Boyd, for example, does not believe God is almighty misrepresents his position (and other free will theists).
You cite Isaiah 46:9-10 which reads:
'remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, “My purpose shall stand,
and I will fulfill my intention,”' (Is 46:9-10, NRSV)
What does this verse actually say? What is it actually about? It asserts these things:
1) God is unique.
2) God is able to declare the end from the beginning.
3) Why? Because God has a purpose that cannot be thwarted; God will fulfill God's intentions.
This is what makes God unique from others. If God says he will do something then no one can stop God from so doing. Even evil cannot thwart God's plans.
These verses do not say that every single thing that happens has already been settled. What is settled is what God, specifically says God will do and bring about. The text does not say that every event, every decision is predetermined by God. It is talking about God's own intentions. To suggest that
Quote:
ALL things are settled and have been SETTLED since the foundation of the World...
is actually to read more into the text than is actually there.
Revelation 13:8 is about the purpose of God in Christ being determined from the foundation of the world. It is a logical fallacy to generalise from this one instance that ALL things are determined from the foundation of the world.
In other words, these texts suggest that some of the future is settled. It does not logically require that all of the future is settled. God is sovereign -- if God wants to make the world that way then he can. Who are we to question God's decision?
Finally, free will theism does not attack God's sovereignty. God is sovereign. Sovereignty means that God has ultimate authority. Nothing about free will theism attacks God's sovereignty. To suggest otherwise is to misrepresent free will theism.
Could you please explain what Genesis 22:12 means to you?
Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:41 am Post subject: Re: Staying on Topic?
WillieH: Hello Spozz.... grace be unto you...
Before I answer your questions, I EXPECT you to answer mine (which, so far you haven't!)
You may think to choose to fall into his trap... and if you do, your deception IS ordained from the foundation of the World and IS within the foreknowledge of God that you would do so...
Quote:
1) God can not do anything evil.
Is that so? First of all, He is the CREATOR of EVIL He is RESPONSIBLE for its existence:
(Is 45:7) "I form the light, and CREATE DARKNESS, I make peace and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD (YAHWEH) do ALL these things..."
then He said...
(2 Chron 34:28) "Behold, I will gather thee to thy fathers and thou shalt be gathered to thy grave in peace, neither shall thine eyes see all the EVIL that I WILL BRING upon this place and upon the inhabitants of the same..."
And He said...
(2 Chron 18:22) "Now therefore, behold the LORD (YAHWEH) hath PUT A LYING SPIRIT in the mouth of these thy prophets and the LORDhath spoken EVIL against thee..."
And He said...
(Jer 4:6) "Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I WILL BRING EVIL from the north and a great destruction..."
and furthermore see: Jer 18:11 / Jer 42:10 / Jer 42:17 / Ps 7:4 / Jer 11:11 / Jer 6:19 / Jer 11:17 / Jer 18:8 / there are many more, but lets finish with:
(Jer 45:5) "And seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not for behold, I WILL BRING EVIL upon ALL FLESH, saith the LORD (YAHWEH)..."
So much for your first statement... let us proceed to the 2nd one:
Quote:
2) Deceiving someone is evil.
If what you state here is true.. then how is it that GOD put the following verse in His Word (in the NT!)
(2 Thess 2:10-11) (10)"...because they recieved NOT the LOVE of the TRUTH that they might be saved. (11) And for this cause GOD shall send them STRONG DELUSION, that they should BELIEVE a LIE..."
and he said through Jeremiah's pen..
(Jer 4:10) "Then said I, Ah, Lord God! Surely thou hast greatly DECIEVED this people and Jerusalem, saying ye shall have peace whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul...."
and Ezekiel...
(Ez 14:9) "And if the prophet be DECIEVED when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD (YAHWEH) have DECIEVED that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him and will destroy him form the midst of my people Israel"
Onto your 3rd statement...
Quote:
3) If God has ordained me to be deceived then I have no choice in the matter.
You may have hit it on the head with this one, Paul in Romans 9:11-22 - (actually the whole chapter is relevant, but lets zero in on verses 20 & 21) for IT IS WRITTEN:
Rom (9:20-21) - (20) "Nay, but O man who art thou that repliest against GOD? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, ....why hast thou made me thus?" (21) "Hath not the POTTER power over the clay, of the SAME LUMP to make ONE VESSEL unto HONOR and ANOTHER to DISHONOR?"
Where, Spozz, do you see your supposed FREE WILL and CHOICE in these verses?
On to your IRREVERENT and ILLOGICAL conclusion...
Quote:
4) Therefore, God is evil and I am not responsible for being deceived.
To equate GOD evil because things are in His hands as opposed to yours is both irreverent and illogical... When you have a problem with your new car... do you get mad at the car? Do you expect the car to fix itself? Or do you take it to its MAKER and ask they solve the problem, seeing they MADE the CAR.. THEY are BEST QUALIFIED to FIX IT!
Finally to this last statement which is facetious in part, true in part, and again irreverent in part. First the false part:
Quote:
The view that God foreordains everything leads to an evil god
Because the manufacturer has made the product so.. to function according to HIS PURPOSE and final outcome does NOT call for a deduction of EVIL... rather... it is best for the MANUFACTURER to be IN CONTROL of ALL things... that the things HE has CREATED will have their BEST INTERESTS served.. especially in the case of SPIRITUAL matters, for MAN knows nothing of SPIRITUAL things until GOD TEACHES him...
Even if we are controlled in every aspect... dont you think LIVING is better than DEATH? Now for part 2 of this last statement:
Quote:
and non-responsible humans.
YES! Salvation depends NOT upon us, but upon Him... now, our individual rewards... well, we reap what we sow... but as far as responsibility - this was displayed amply in the sacrifice of JESUS CHRIST for the SIN of the WORLD...
Quote:
Free will theists assert that God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc. So to say that Boyd, for example, does not believe God is almighty misrepresents his position (and other free will theists).
You cite Isaiah 46:9-10 which reads:
'remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, “My purpose shall stand,
and I will fulfill my intention,”' (Is 46:9-10, NRSV)
What does this verse actually say? What is it actually about? It asserts these things:
1) God is unique.
2) God is able to declare the end from the beginning.
3) Why? Because God has a purpose that cannot be thwarted; God will fulfill God's intentions.
This is what makes God unique from others. If God says he will do something then no one can stop God from so doing. Even evil cannot thwart God's plans.
Spozz... How can you begin to trust a GOD that in your heart, you believe that He is not sure of everything that will occur? If you and I are choosing and effecting the outcome, then is HE IN CONTROL? or are we? The only way it all ADDS UP to HIS PURPOSE is that HE IS IN CONTROL, as stated by the following verses:
(Jer 10:23) "O LORD, I know that the WAY of MAN is NOT IN HIMSELF: it is NOT IN MAN that walketh to DIRECT HIS STEPS" Where is your choice and FREE WILL here Spozz? How about the NT...
(Rom 9:15-17) -
(15) "For he saith to Moses, I will have MERCY on whom I will have mercy, and I will have COMPASSION on whom I will have compassion"
(16) "So, then it IS NOT of him that WILLETH nor of him that RUNNETH, but of GOD that shewest mercy..."
(17) For the SCRIPTURE saith unto PHARAOH, Even for this SAME PURPOSE have I RAISED THEE UP that I might SHOW my POWER in THEE and that my name might be DECLARED in the WHOLE EARTH..."
Do you still cling to your tradition? Are you considering the scriptures an attack ...personally?
Let me conclude by commenting upon your "summary"in 3 sections)... And after I am done I have a question for you... WILL YOU ANSWER MY QUESTIONS? Or are you UNABLE to?
Quote:
section #1...
These verses do not say that every single thing that happens has already been settled. What is settled is what God, specifically says God will do and bring about. The text does not say that every event, every decision is predetermined by God. It is talking about God's own intentions. To suggest that
Quote:
ALL things are settled and have been SETTLED since the foundation of the World...
is actually to read more into the text than is actually there.
I have provided verses above (Jer 10:23 and Rom 9:15-17) in both the Old and New Testaments, that GOD is in control of ALL THINGS... If you choose to argue this, then I leave you to yourself.. for, if Scripture will not convince, then EGW has her claws in to deep, and your destiny does not involve me further...
Quote:
Section #2
Revelation 13:8 is about the purpose of God in Christ being determined from the foundation of the world. It is a logical fallacy to generalise from this one instance that ALL things are determined from the foundation of the world.
Steve... Rev 13:8 is a statement that refers to the FOUNDATION of the WORLD and an event that took place THEN... for GOD (whether you see it or not.. sees the end FROM the BEGINNING - so for GOD, ALL events in TIME happened at the FOUNDATION of the WORLD, and HIS PURPOSE was the on-going DIRECTIVE that ALL events (during the time of Man) FOLLOWED to HIS CONCLUSION)
Quote:
section #3
In other words, these texts suggest that some of the future is settled. It does not logically require that all of the future is settled. God is sovereign -- if God wants to make the world that way then he can. Who are we to question God's decision?
Finally, free will theism does not attack God's sovereignty. God is sovereign. Sovereignty means that God has ultimate authority. Nothing about free will theism attacks God's sovereignty. To suggest otherwise is to misrepresent free will theism.
*************************************************************
Your picture of GOD is one that is HE is...
(a) partial and respecter of persons (save some, not others)
(b) inadequate and unable to overcome the will of His creation (because HE gave man "choice")
(c) Unsure of (at least) some of the events that are unfolding in the history of mankind, and finally..
d) that our supposed FREE WILL is the determining factor in our eternal destiny...
Your picture of yourself is...
(a) You have a choice ("Free Will") that is unaffected by GOD unless YOU decide..
(b) That it is your choice that brought you Salvation
(c) That it is good that you have chosen Salvation, and also, that it is unfortunate for those that make the wrong decision concerning this, even though they do not have all the necessary information to make such a decision.. for (in truth) no one knows the scope of eternal fire, nor do they (in truth) know the scope of the joy of heavenly bliss, yet, in the EGW view which you appear to have, this decision has NEVERTHLESS been put in the hands of these uninformed ones and its just tough for those that "choose poorly"
*************************************************************
My picture of GOD is one that is HE is...
(a) A LOVING Creator that LOVES each of his creations EQUALLY
(b) that HE, in fact is ALMIGHTY and IN CONTROL of ALL THINGS. That HIS WILL is truly the ONLY WILL that exists and is now in the process of unfolding this truth to all creation. (to its delight)
(c) He is COMPLETELY SURE and in CONTROL of EVERYTHING that takes place, its outcome and ALMIGHTY in that HE CONTROLS the moment to moment activity of every creature, that the sum and result of those activities ...BENEFITS ALL...
(d) The eternal destiny of man was sealed within the all encompassing sacrifice of His son JESUS CHRIST who died FOR the SIN of the WHOLE WORLD, is SAVIOR of ALL, no WORKS can gain or lose what He has sealed in this event to the delight of ALL...
My Picture of myself is...
(a) I am a sinner saved by the GRACE of GOD ...ALONE and,
(b) I had no part in this decision.. He decided this for me.. for which I am ETERNALLY thankful, and...
(c) That I am humbled to be a part of His plan to REDEEM ALL THINGS unto Himself as stated over and over in the Holy Bible, and am so ETERNALLY GRATEFUL that ALL shall be included in His LOVING plan which is LOVING, ...MERCIFUL and ...JUST.
Quote:
Could you please explain what Genesis 22:12 means to you?
Steve, this verse is in the same genre as the YAHWEH's questions to ADAM..
"Who told thee that thou wast naked?"
"Hast thou eaten from the tree whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest NOT EAT?"
Do you think He didnt KNOW these things? Do you think that He needed ADAM's VERIFICATION? Do you think that when He made ADAM, He didnt know what was going to take place? Do you think He was caught unawares and had to come up with plan B? If you answer yes to any of these... you have been reading too much EGW, and the BIBLE too little... and that is my answer to you.
What God stated to ABRAHAM in Genesis 22:12... was that HENCEFORTH from this MOMENT, he had proven (for all MANKIND to know) that he (ABRAHAM) had faith in GOD, (which God foreknew because the ram was also prepared for Abraham's FAITH.. beforehand) and in this moment, GOD could bestow the oracles of His legacy and the plan of Salvation through that FAITH which Abraham displayed for a witness to us all...
I leave you to battle with yourself... or to acknowledge GOD and His Word instead of EGW and her misleadings...
eugene, how many damn times are you going to move this thread?!
are you like trying to make it harder for us to see that a reply has been posted so we will stop or something? or do you just not understand your own system of organization?
Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:14 pm Post subject: MY Question to YOU...
WillieH: Hi Spozz... grace be unto you..
Hey in all that looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong reply to you, I forgot to ask you MY QUESTION! Here it is....
Please give me the ...BOOK, ...CHAPTER, ....and VERSE, that states that MAN has FREE WILL...
I'll be waiting...
PS... You'll probably find it in the same book that states: The TRINITY, the RAPTURE, CHRISTMAS, EASTER, ETERNAL SEPARATION, and last but NOT LEAST... GOD, the SAVIOR of SOME....
PSS... I won't be holding my breath...
PSSS... If you can't find these things in the WORD of GOD, and they are NOT FOUNDED in SCRIPTURE, ....then WHY do you BELIEVE THEM? (Opps thats 2 questions.... sorry!) ....
Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:34 pm Post subject: Amend...
WillieH: Hello Spozz... grace be unto you...
I would like to amend (thats amen with "d") a couple of the things I posted in answer to you...
Concerning DECIEVING.. GOD obviously (as noted in scripture) can and DOES DECIEVE, but for PURPOSES of GOOD not EVIL...
Also, GOD obviously (as noted in scripture) can and DOES EVIL, but again, His PURPOSE is ALWAYS to use that EVIL for GOOD...
To say, because of these things that GOD ...IS EVIL.. is blasphemy and irreverent in the LOWest level... that said...
HE is TOTALLY IN CONTROL of ALL THINGS... ALL THINGS, including EVIL are UNDER HIS SUPERVISION and were CREATED BY HIM and FOR HIM... yet, His use and involvement in these apparently "wrong" things are generated by RIGHTEOUS MOTIVES as opposed to MAN, who uses and involves himself in EVIL for UNRIGHTEOUS MOTIVES...
In the end, He is GOD, and NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for Him, including the use of EVIL... or DECEPTION...
I know you believe in LIMITATIONS concerning Him, and will not accept what I say here, but note that you (via the scriptures) have been made aware of His involvement concerning these things, and one day, if you keep seeking Him (in His Word ONLY), you might find them to be true....
Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 68 Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:39 pm Post subject: Can God sin?
Hi WillieH
I am beginning to see why others have withdrawn from conversation with you. You begin your communication with a phrase 'grace be unto you' but there is little graciousness in your actual communication. You continually personalise the discussion and, when others disagree with you, you merely consign them to the category of being deceived or lost and, in any case, it's all God's doing.
There is little intellectual humility in your approach. You clearly believe that you are right and anyone who disagrees with you, you stereotype. You draw ridiculous and outrageous conclusions such as, 'If you answer yes to any of these... you have been reading too much EGW, and the BIBLE too little... and that is my answer to you.' I have never quoted EG White's writings and yet you decide that that must be why I say what I do. You know nothing about my beliefs regarding Ellen White's writings and so your comments are completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
I have previously said that if you cannot discuss these matters without personalising them I will not continue. So far, you have not demonstrated that. I will give you the benefit of the doubt on this occasion, but if it happens again I will not even reply to your messages.
It is very difficult to know how to respond to your posts because they are filled with poor exegesis, proof-texting, misconstrual of my position, and emotive stereotyping. Let me begin with the misconstrual of my position.
You describe my picture of God as one where God is:
a) 'partial and respecter of persons'
I do not believe this at all. Paul makes it quite clear that '... God shows no partiality.' (Ro 2:11, NRSV) Therefore, you have incorrectly understood my position.
b) 'inadequate and unable to overcome the will of God's creation'
I do not believe this at all. I believe that God is omnipotent and sovereign and is capable of doing anything he chooses to do. Therefore, you incorrectly understand my position.
c) 'Unsure of (at least) some of the events that are unfolding in the history of mankind'
I do not believe this at all. I believe God knows all there is to know and is very well aware of what is unfolding in history. My position is that the future is partly settled and partly open. This is a statement about the nature of reality that God has chosen to create in his sovereignty and not a statement about the characteristics of God. You do not have an adequately nuanced understanding of my position. Before you criticise it you need to, at least, demonstrate that you correctly understand it.
d) 'Our supposed free will is the determining factor in our eternal destiny'
I do not believe this at all. The determining factor in our eternal destiny is the act of God in Christ on Calvary to provide our salvation by grace alone without any contribution from our own works. You have an incorrect understanding of my position.
My point is, that when we engage in conversation, we need to spend a large amount of time listening to the other person's point of view so that we avoid misrepresenting them and falling into the strawman fallacy. In all your critique you have not critiqued my actual point of view.
Let's tackle one issue at a time. By doing so, we can first ensure that we understand each other's position and then proceed to critique where necessary. Let's tackle the first issue: Can God do anything evil?
Let me clarify my position. I don't believe it is possible for God to sin. It is not possible for God to do something immoral.
Before going any further, do we agree on this statement? Please don't consider other topics at the moment -- just this one. And please confine your remarks to whether or not it is possible for God to sin -- not my future destiny, not whether I believe in EG White, not whether I am predestined to say this or not, not whether I am being deceived, or any other matter. Do you agree or disagree with the statement: it is impossible for God to sin.
Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:09 pm Post subject: You Answer me, ...then I'll answer you...
WillieH: Hello Spozz... grace be unto you...
First let me say that in that long winded reply to me you DID NOTanswer ....my question to you...
Therefore... I will NOT answer your post...
In JESUS ...WillieH
PS I find it amusing that you state me as 'full of myself" in so many manipulative and disjointed wordings, then FILL the PAGE with your OWN (psuedo-INTELLECTUAL) SELF INDULGING... Theres a word begins with H ends with E and has a ypocrit in the middle that describes such a post...
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