A Reform-minded Seventh-day Adventist forum   In our aim to exalt everything important, first and foremost, we seek to promote a clear understanding of Daniel, Revelation, the three angels' messages and the alpha and omega of apostasy.    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  I have a hard time making sense of Shubert's random rants Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next           Forum Index -> The Bottomless Pit View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Chris Osborne sentient bipedal physicist Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 75 Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:16 pm    Post subject: No, I threw a (well deserved) stone at Eugene. And then you threw a stone at me. So, "between me and you" it was you that threw the first stone. And while I'm at it, I would like to add that I didn't actually start this topic at all. Eugene with his crazy administrative policies took a post I had in a completely separate thread and made a new thread out of it and then gave it a title that makes me sound dumb. So that's a few more stones Eugene's way. Back to top   '); //--> TheAlphaWolf agnostic Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 88 Location: USA Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:36 pm    Post subject: So you didn't start the thread but you did start the topic. Back to top   '); //--> Chris Osborne sentient bipedal physicist Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 75 Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:08 pm    Post subject: Yes but between you and me, I did not cast the first stone. Back to top   '); //--> TheAlphaWolf agnostic Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 88 Location: USA Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:09 pm    Post subject: Maybe not to me, but you did cast the first stone. Does the bible say that it matters who you cast the first stone at? Back to top   '); //--> Chris Osborne sentient bipedal physicist Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 75 Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:24 pm    Post subject: I don't care about the Bible. I was just using that anology because you people care about it. Back to top   '); //--> TheAlphaWolf agnostic Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 88 Location: USA Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:46 pm    Post subject: I don't. Back to top   '); //--> tall73 Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 04 Aug 2004 Posts: 96 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:34 pm    Post subject: ER folks...please, the whole point in Jesus' story was that NO ONE cast the first stone, because they realized it would be a poor idea. Back to top   '); //--> TheAlphaWolf agnostic Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 88 Location: USA Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:58 pm    Post subject: What about the second stone? He sure casts stones at us if we do something. He damns people to eternal suffering if (depending on what you believe) you don't believe in him/the bible, if you have other gods, etc.... if that's justice... then I guess casting the second stone is too. He says to turn the other cheek, but you don't believe in him and bam you're in eternal suffering. ETERNAL. can humans even comprehend such lenght of time? but ok, assuming that ANYTHING you could possibly do in your short ignorant life (humans) deserves eternal punishment and we should believe the bible... then I guess we really shouldn't punish criminals or anyone since you shouldn't get revange, you should turn the other cheek. Back to top   '); //--> tall73 Seventh-day Adventist Joined: 04 Aug 2004 Posts: 96 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:25 pm    Post subject: You do of course anticipate my answer a bit. Adventists do not believe that hell is eternal. Nor does the Bible actually teach it. But yes, God does eventually bring an end to sin and those who wish to cling to it. Is that not more merciful than letting people continually abuse one another? The idea of an eternally burning hell was brought about by other religions, including the hellenistic views of the Greeks. It made its way into Christian theology during the period after the Bible was written. It also has the distinction in many atheist's views of being the doctrine that turned the most people away. Although I think it tends to be a stumbling blcok for the more intellectual ones, with the issue of suffering in general, or theodicy being the biggest issue for most folks. Interestingly even many evangelicals are now coming to this awareness and accpeting what is known as annhilationism. Back to top   '); //--> TheAlphaWolf agnostic Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 88 Location: USA Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:51 pm    Post subject: Quote: It also has the distinction in many atheist's views of being the doctrine that turned the most people away. Although I think it tends to be a stumbling blcok for the more intellectual ones, with the issue of suffering in general, or theodicy being the biggest issue for most folks. It's not just that for me. It's all sorts of stuff. From the bible saying that there were days (evenings and mornings), light, plants, etc. before there was the sun, moon, or even stars; the fact that the bible directly contradicts what the world tells us (evolution, that the earth is not just thousands of years old); questions like "how can god be both merciful and just at the same time?"; things that make the earth seem like it's flat instead of round, and that it is fixed instead of moving; that it says god stopped the SUN to make days longer; it saying that at first the earth was covered in water and then earth popped up, the fact that if god will punish you if you don't believe him even though he gives you no reason to believe in him, unexplained and apparently useless things like why would god, being perfect, create man? he was as happy as could be before he created man, Why does he punish the kids of the sinners? Why does he punish someone who doesn't know right from wrong? why did adam and eve becoem ashamed from being naked? why, if he's perfect, didn't he see at once that adam would need a wife? why did he even make a male first? why did he make eve out of his rib? if god is omnipresent, is he in hell too? can god make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? if he can't, then he's not omnipotent, yet if he can, he's not omnipotent either... so god isn't omnipotent.... etc. I know what you might say about a couple of them, but I'm not satisfied with those answers. ok so if we should strive to be like god and god casts the second stone, then we should also cast the second stone. Not the first... but the second. We should also punish people for stupid reasons like them not having blind faith in us, we should punish them just because they didn't know any better but they did it anyway (adam and eve), We should demand people to show they have faith in us by sacrificing their sons, etc. after all, god is perfect, so we must imitate perfection. Like I like to say, I know people that are nicer than your god. Back to top   '); //--> Chris Osborne sentient bipedal physicist Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 75 Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:57 pm    Post subject: It was the extreme cruelty of God in the OT that led me to stop believing in Christianity. Literalists of course believe that stuff simply happened, but even non-literalists insist that the Bible is the "inspired word of God." Why would God inspire writers to make him come off as a complete asshole? It doesn't make any sense to me. Oh and BTW, Eugene doesn't believe in evolution. He believes in "punctuated equilibrium" which roughly translated means multiple creations. Back to top   '); //--> TheAlphaWolf agnostic Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 88 Location: USA Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:22 pm    Post subject: Quote: Oh and BTW, Eugene doesn't believe in evolution. He believes in "punctuated equilibrium" which roughly translated means multiple creations. that's not true. punctuated equilibrium is evolution. If you believe in multiple creations, you don't believe in punctuated equilibrium, you believe in multiple creations. they are totally different. Last edited by TheAlphaWolf on Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total Back to top   '); //--> Chris Osborne sentient bipedal physicist Joined: 21 May 2005 Posts: 75 Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:23 pm    Post subject: Not according to the description of it that Eugene gave me to read. Back to top   '); //--> TheAlphaWolf agnostic Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 88 Location: USA Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:25 pm    Post subject: whoa you're on. Well then he gave you a messed up version of punctuated equilibrium. 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