I was asked in the Picnic Area to say a little bit about myself and to state my motive for creating this forum. Also, just yesterday, I received an email asking the same thing. The email also wanted me to state my credentials.

Truth doesn’t speak for itself any more. One must list their credentials. Actually, that’s a really good idea. I wish to teach new light on the book of Revelation, then Daniel and it would be a good idea for me to state my qualifications.

There are two different kinds of credentials that I might refer too. There is recognition granted by worldly institutions, rank in society derived from popularity, fame and the power of wealth. There is also a recognition that is granted by the church. Do all the priests and elders approve of you? Because heavenly credentials outweigh the recognition granted by the world, I will give considerable weight to the credentials given me by God.

Who Am I?

I am my theology. I am the sum total of my experiences, aspirations, emotions, capacities, faith etc. (That covers a lot of ground). I’ll try to cover my most interesting experiences, like when I was once admonished by an angel in a dream.

I realize that my entire life has been a continual failure to honor my Savior but the blessings that God gave me are really unbelievable. By faith and prophetic understanding, I suppose that I have been appointed to bring about the fulfillment of William Miller’s dream (See, Early Writings of Ellen G. White p. 81-83). In the dream William Miller is vindicated. —It didn’t happen to William Miller. The second half of the dream foretells an experience fulfilled largely by me.

It’s amazing how God can easily lead people to a profound understanding of Scripture. At the beginning of his investigation of the Bible, William Miller was a deist. At the end of two years, William Miller had a startling message for the world (The Great Controversy [1888 edition] p. 329). There is only one way to explain this. Ellen White makes these comments: “God sent His angel to move upon the heart of a farmer who had not believed the Bible, to lead him to search the prophecies. Angels of God repeatedly visited that chosen one.” — “Angels of Heaven were guiding his mind, and opening to his understanding prophecies which had ever been dark to God’s people.”

There was also a natural process at work in the way Miller received his understanding. “With intense interest he studied the books of Daniel and the Revelation.” Compare that natural process to when the natural process is supernaturally directed and speeded up, as in this one instance for the Apostle Paul:

“In that hour of heavenly illumination, the mind of Saul acted with remarkable rapidity. The prophetic records of Holy Writ were opened to his understanding. He saw that the rejection of Jesus by the Jews, his crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, had been foretold by the prophets, and proved him to be the promised Messiah. The sermon of Stephen was brought forcibly to his mind. Now Saul knew that the martyr had indeed beheld ‘the glory of God,’ when he had ‘looked up steadfastly into heaven,’ and had said, ‘Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.’ Those words that the priests had pronounced blasphemy, now appeared to Saul as truth.” —Advent Review and Sabbath Herald 03-16-11.

I believe that I had a revelatory experience somewhat comparable to the Apostle Paul and William Miller. God gave me an overpowering crash-course with a continuous flood of awesome insight and understanding of Daniel and Revelation in a span of 3 short weeks.

I was a typically dumb Seventh-day Adventist at the time. It was at the end of my first year as a mathematics student at the University of California, San Diego (1982). It was a Friday; I just finished my last class and finals week was coming up. I don’t recall the exact state of my mind that day but there was something that made me go to bed at 7PM. (Possibly it was discouragement). I woke up at 1AM with an insatiable desire to read Daniel 11. I had it in my mind that I was going to take the text exactly for what it says.

I couldn’t stop for three whole weeks. Every waking moment I was studying Daniel and then Revelation—even when I was eating. It was impossible for me to put the Bible down and study for final exams. (I did take the final examinations. They were not a problem. I got all A’s that quarter). At the end of those 3 incredible weeks I had “all of Daniel and Revelation figured out.”

Permit me to insert some relevant biographical material here. I started sharing my understanding with others. Those closest to me at the time accepted my interpretations almost immediately.

There was one Pastor C who studied my view and told me “Wow, it answers everything. I’m going to write a letter of endorsement to the Conference president and tell him that the church ought to look into this.” And he really meant it.

My brother Bob knew Pastor C really well. My brother was always making a remark about Pastor C—how cagey he was. I did get an endorsement from the pastor but not the kind I was expecting. I asked the pastor how his letter of recommendation was coming along. He said he was studying and coming up with objections to my view. We were neighborly. The pastor asked me to give him a ride to a pizza parlor where his son was working, to pick him up. As we started to drive back I asked Pastor C what his objections were (to my new light). Pastor C starting “speaking in tongues.” Not the usual gibberish you hear on TV. Every word was English but it would be impossible, I think, to put any two of his consecutive words side by side in an ordinary sentence! He was uttering meaningless strings of random words. I turned to him as if in a normal response and said, “You don’t have any objections, do you?” He said “no.” That was in Southern Calif. I don’t remember the date.

In 1988 I moved to Texas to go to graduate school at the University of Texas at Dallas. On the evening of December 15, 1988 I was working on a letter to Dr. Bill Shea. I had engaged him in an exchange previously over my book on prophecy and I had enough. I was trying to answer his response to my page 43-44. I was looking for words that say tactfully and in a profoundly Christ-like way that his thinking was stupid and chaotic and definitely inferior to the logic of children. After wasting much time trying to figure out how I could engineer such a useful piece of literary wit, I went to bed. It was late and I was very tired. I slept well all through the night and into the morning. I had this dream around 6AM:

I was on the road and in the backseat of a beautiful red convertible. I was unable to see the driver. My attention was mostly preoccupied with how dazzling white the seat I was sitting on was. I also knew that there was a white horse with me in the backseat. I was on the left side. He was sitting on the right. We soon pulled off the road into a gas station as if we needed to ask directions to make sure we were going in the right direction. Pastor C, who enjoys discussion and was riding up front, got out to talk with the attendant of the station. I was waiting a long time. My attention then shifted to an adjacent lot where a horse was standing in tall grass. I particularly noticed how the grass hid the horse’s 4 legs so that they couldn’t be seen. The next thing I knew, the horse was in a corral and I was petting him and telling him what a beautiful horse he was. I had never seen such a beautiful animal. I was truly dumbstruck by the beauty of this beast. I couldn’t understand the attraction; I don’t even have an ordinary interest in horses or pets. Then I heard Pastor C insult the attendant for saying something stupid. The horse was then right in front of me and was quickly transforming into an angel. I wanted to know what an angel looks like so I was watching intently. The angel was angry. He quickly concealed his face before I could discern what an angelic face looks like. He then began to speak. As he spoke the appearance of the angel began to morph in a new way. It felt as if God was appearing to me from right behind the angel or was speaking directly through him: “The purpose of an argument is....” I reacted with a woe in my mind that is indescribable. The bolt of the theophany subsided; I was listening to the instruction that I was receiving. “The purpose of an argument is....” but each word that followed was so rich in meaning that I had to go word by word in a lengthy pause to soak up the deep and awesome meaning that each of these words had. I could understand each word separately but not in the sentence. I tried to understand what the angel was saying but I couldn’t think fast enough to follow along. I gave up on trying to understand all but the first sentence. In my struggle to understand what all the words meant collectively in just the first sentence I woke up trying to remember all the words.

What is the significance of the dream to you? How do you interpret it?

In the beginning of the dream, the white horse represents the gospel. Not only is the gospel not moving, you can’t even see its four legs. The gospel is in a corral. Pastor C could have received a quick answer from the attendant and we could have been on our way but he chose to enter into a fruitless discussion, which just creates friction. I am not in charge of reaching an important destination. The gospel is in the backseat with me.

About 98 or 99% of the globes population does not have a computer to surf the internet. What are you doing to reach these people with the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ?

I thought I made it clear that the gospel is immobilized and that I’m not in any assigned position, such as influence or management, as others are, to take it to its destination. If you’re concerned about the gospel not reaching its destination, you need to inquire of those who are culpable. I’m in the backseat.

Eugene, what is the calling of the Lord Jesus Christ for you life, if you know? Every man has a calling and a purpose. We’re either in search of our calling or we’ve found it and we’re fulfilling it with zest and vigor.

2 Tim 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Rom 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Edited by Eugene Shubert.

I already answered that.

Eugene Shubert wrote:By faith and prophetic understanding, I believe that I have been appointed to bring about the fulfillment of William Miller’s dream (See, Early Writings of Ellen G. White p. 81-83). In the dream William Miller is vindicated. —It didn’t happen to William Miller. The second half of the dream foretells an experience fulfilled largely by me.

That is quite a unique dream. Mrs. Gray is trying to see how a horse might have fit in the backseat. Perhaps the reason the horse was in the back seat was that it is too large to be relegated to such a position and needs to have room to run freely.

By the way, it is nice that you are fulfilling William Miller's dream. Mrs. Gray wishes that you could recall the words spoken to you in the second half of the dream. However, perhaps your words on this forum and other places are the same words being spoken to you in the dream, and that as you naturally go about your speaking and writing, you are relaying these vital truths to a whole new group of people as you have a very unique grasp on such issues.

Sincerely,

Mrs. Gray

:) A recurrent theme of the dream is in regard to communication, or the lack of it. Pastor C speaks but is incomprehensible. Eugene doesn't get past the phrase "the purpose of an arguement is..." And Pasor C is arguing inainly at the gas station. And it all seems to be about the word of the Lord in The Gospel. I think the dream partly concerns the importance of explaining what Eugene Schubert needs to say to the world. I also think that his web site and the Adventist forums are EXTREMELY important. I'm not worried that he may not be able to reach those who do not have a computer. On the contrary the world wide web is most likely going to play a very important role in helping millions "in the valley of decision". I believe the whole of Eugene's dream deals with his realizing his destiny in regard to his web site here.

The Adventist scholar Raymond Cottrell had no problem recognizing how intensely Biblical and Adventist my interpretation of Daniel and Revelation is. I've had many long discussions with Cottrell in the early 1980s at both Loma Linda University and in his home. Cottrell said that my view is amazingly consistent. He had no Biblical objections against it because of its internal consistency but he rejected it because he presupposed that I was biased. For Cottrell, it all boiled down to this. He accused me of trying to prove the traditional view. That was his rebuttal. That's the only argument he had. His accusation is nonsense because my view came by revelation at a very inconvenient time. It was the Friday just before finals week at the end of my first year at the University of Calif., San Diego. I was a student of mathematics. I should have been studying for finals. There was absolutely no outside influence to motivate me to study Daniel and Revelation at that juncture. I was a typically stupid Adventist at that time. Then at 1 A.M. on Sabbath morning and for every conscious moment after that for three solid weeks, other than going to school to take my final exams, I was supernaturally driven to study the book of Daniel and was in a constant state of being continually overwhelmed by revelation. At the end of it I was a Bible scholar that had all of Daniel and Revelation figured out. I can not be accused of bias. For those who understand my notes I think it's obvious that the conclusions I came to were given to me by God. Even the connection between Daniel and Revelation is without bias. I remember that when I had finished studying Daniel and having a complete understanding of it, I then turned to Revelation. In so doing I remember the trepidation I felt, literally trembling at the thought that God was guiding me and I had no idea what I would find. It quickly came to my mind, having read the book of Revelation before, that I couldn't even remember what the seven seals and seven trumpets were about. I couldn't remember anything about those sections. As I said previously, I was a typical stupid Adventist. I had no idea or even a recollection of what Adventists thought it meant. As I tried to remember, nothing came to mind from talks or sermons that I might have heard or from Adventist books that I had read. Within seconds of opening the book, I knew instantly by revelation that the predominant structure of the book of Revelation involves the unfolding of three scenarios. I was in complete awe and totally amazed by the revelation. As I skimmed though the book, the revelation was confirmed. It was all there. It was so obvious.

God has given me incredible new light that answers the greatest theological riddles in Adventism: Daniel, Revelation (3 scenarios, the 3 angels' messages, 7 churches, 666 and the Investigative Judgment), the human nature of Christ and the Trinity. I also had a supernatural experience while studying the omega prophecy in Scripture. Not many months later I had a vision on the pantheism of John Harvey Kellogg.

My vision on Kellogg's theology took place in the Heritage room of Loma Linda University Library (where they keep copies of all of EGW's writings). I was reading Living Temple by John Harvey Kellogg and at some point came to some incredible descriptions of Kellogg's pantheistic beliefs. I was too hungry to continue to read so I went out to eat. When I returned to researching Kellogg's book I never found the alarming confessions that I read before. When I moved to Texas I got a copy of Living Temple from a nearby Christian university library and read the book from cover to cover. I have now concluded that what happened to me in the Loma Linda University Library was that I was reading the words of a vision.

My second vision was when I was at my job earlier this year. The work was boring and I was trying to concentrate with all my might at reading my computer screen -- trying to get through the monotony of it, being as productive as I could be. Then my mind was taken away from that. I had a most heavenly vision of shouting praises to God and worshiping Him, as if I was in heaven. The joy and excitement I felt was delightfully wonderful, unimaginably intense and unquestionably heavenly. My thoughts and joy while praising God (which were powerfully magnified and clarified while in that transcendent state) were in being fully aware that God is the most thrilling Thing in the universe.

I look forward to living that experience every moment in heaven and am very grateful to God for giving me a glimpse of that future exciting joy in this world.

NJK Project wrote:I am understand that you seated on a dazzling white seat involves you there considering yourself to be in the right/righteous place

No. In the dream, I only considered myself a passenger that was absolutely astonished at the unspeakably beautiful interior of the car and especially the perfect whiteness of the backseat that I was sitting on.

NJK Project wrote:So, understanding that a horse represents a choice resource for travel/mobility, which made horses key to winning a wars in Bible times, and thus a fitting spiritual symbol for an advancing Church Triumphant, and with a White Horse, as with Revelation’s first seal’s horse, being a symbol for a phase of the Church Militant advancing with a righteous message, a horse that is not only immobilized, but is also being driven around, by pertinently enough a ‘synthetically “horsepowered”’ vehicles, a modern invention of man, and with the obvious imagery of a horse being crammed into the back seat of a red convertible, presumedly a type of sports car which itself typically does not have much backseat space, then the whole situation here seems to be one that was artificial and forced, yet you and also that horse seem to be at ease with going along with this state of “travelling circumstances”.

Although most convertibles are probably sports cars, this vehicle had the appearance of a presidential limousine on the outside while its dimensions and roominess in the back seemed more carlike. It was certainly more spacious than any luxury car that I have ever been in. I still remember feeling that I was like the size of a small boy in comparison to the size of the backseat. Pertaining to cars, the word convertible in the World English Dictionary simply means “having a folding or removable roof.”

In the dream, I did consider how a horse could possibly be positioned in the backseat with me and I did want to investigate that but I could not turn my head in that direction to see how the horse could fit. I do know that I tried too hard to see how the horse was positioned because when I exerted a substantial effort to see the mystery and resolve the riddle, the scene momentarily changed to me being in the backseat of an ordinary VW bug with high-back bucket seats. (Even at that, I still couldn't turn my head to see to my right). I assume that this momentary interruption in the dream was caused by me wanting to figure something out instead of humbly receiving whatever the Lord wanted to show me.

NJK Project wrote:Apparently you were trusting that Pastor C knew best how to get you there, and that presumedly fast sports car would be much better than you riding that horse alone, even if you yourself knew how to get where you wanted to go.

Absolutely not. I was primarily just a spectator.

NJK Project wrote:I am sure you can readily see here how this all relates with how you were trusting you Church leadership (represented by Pastor C)

If you could backup and read the biographical description of Pastor C, you would see that I didn’t regard him as being the least bit honorable.

NJK Project wrote:The Other Horse
And it is manifestly then that God redirected your attention to a better alternative. You there saw a, manifestly, coloredly non-descript horse, (or perhaps its particularly color itself was not what was to be important to you then), yet you were obviously “dumbstruckly” smitten by how beautiful it still was. You were seeing this horse which, though in an artificially imprisoning/restricting corral, was in a much more natural state and scene than that of a (white) horse coup/crammed up in the back seat of a car.

I think it’s obvious that the white horse in the backseat of the church-controlled convertible, the horse in the field with its feet obscured by grass, and the horse in the corral all refer to the gospel being immobilized because of church management. Although I had this dream ages ago (December 15, 1988), I still remember that the beautiful horse in the corral was white.

Thanks very much for your clarifications and additional information here Eugene, as you evidently understood from my open ended phrasings, there were several issues to me that I was suspecting would be needing further info and clarification. I decided to go by what you had posted, but from my own experience in later suddenly seeing the importance of a specific detail which I had not mentioned in a previous documenting of a vision or dream, I readily do understand how some of my assuming or straightforward comments can jog your memory as to what exactly the case was. And I fully expected that you could make such specify corrects. I trust that you can see that I was all along fully trusting you on this matter because the “natural”, judicious, investigative/interrogative thing to do would have been to first ask you about what I saw would be needing more information so that, if I later had made an interpretation which you objected to, you then would not be, effectively “changing your story” by providing details which would avert that interpretation. So I am trustingly fully believing that your corrections and specifications here are indeed the Truth.

And I am finding these added and specifying information to be very enlightening and helpful, and I will address them here with the necessary posting. For the sequitur record, as I was initially responding and reacting to what you had made public, I will leave the initial response to your dream “as is” on my blog post, except for a few technical corrections in regards to major typos. However I will be posting a highlighted link to the corrections and restatements that I will be making here based on what you have later specified.

(By the way, I do want to apologize for the typos in my post. I usually don’t have the time to do the added proofreading and editing following my first wave of writing, but when I notice then in rereading certain parts of it, I usually do make the corrections, yet primarily to the ones which may lead to a substantive misunderstanding.)

To keep the size of my response here to a minimum, I will not always be also quoting my initial responses in this follow up. (I have also highlighted, in bold, other questions that come to my mind as I am responding here). And I am saying much here, indeed much, much more than I thought I would need to when initially starting to respond here, because your dream is indeed packed with applicable prophetic insight, which to me, is a quite striking demonstration of Divine origin, as similarly seen in the panoply of understandings, as well as harmonious multiple applicability in especially the signified prophecies of Revelation. I similarly have had visions/dream which lasted less then 10 minutes but then took up to 3 hours of Bible study and writing to fully unpack.

NJK Project wrote:I am understand that you seated on a dazzling white seat involves you there considering yourself to be in the right/righteous place

Eugene Shubert wrote:No. In the dream, I only considered myself a passenger that was absolutely astonished at the unspeakably beautiful interior of the car and especially the perfect whiteness of the backseat that I was sitting on.

Evidently I did not properly convey my thoughts here and perhaps the typo editing of that statement as follows [bolded words] would have help:

NJK Project wrote: I am understanding that you being seated on a dazzling white seat would interpretively/spiritually involve/imply you there considering yourself to be in the right/righteous place, ...

As I intending in my interpretive meaning, which at the very is what I am seeing is the involve situation for a secondary fulfillement of your dream, which is indeed derived on the involved symbology here of ‘a prominently highlighted seat’, and the color white (righteousness). My question here then is, was only the back seat white or was that the color of the other seats also and also the interior’s finish, or perhaps you just didn’t notice? If only your seat was white and/or you did not notice the color of the other seats (I assume you took notice of the interior’s color as you were astonished by it), then that would actually be highlighting the understanding that you are being represented here as being in the “right/righteous” place. (= “perfect whiteness”). Indeed just based on the account of your real life experience before, the fact that you were consulting with various SDA leaders with your newly discovered Biblical understandings implies that you did consider yourself to be in the right place. In fact, from other postings on your site, especially your “”, despite your radical differences with the SDA Church, including your manifest view, as I gather from here that the GC has lost its Divine authority, your are effectively still considering to be yourself to be in the “right” place, which also involves the “righteous” place given the also involved circumstance that you are not seeing a better other place to go to, as you are also preaching to ‘Not Draw Apart From The Church’. I can understand that stance, and I had it for a while until I saw that the SDA Church was, as your dream involves, in verity ‘completely immobilized’, and, also drawing from the intrinsic natural implications in your dream, with the Church leadership (=Pastor C) evidently not interested in moving on, as they evidently have no idea of how to get to where they are to go, (and actually as you also do not know, since, obviously, you are not shown to be resolving the directional impasse here), then the only way to get to that place, and that would be, if you did know the way there, would be to hitch a ride with another car. Or better yet, as God has quite evidently provided for in your dream, you could have used the beautiful horse in the corral to move on. But, you actually lawfully could not do so, as it was not your horse, and at the very least, you would have to find its owner and ask them permission to borrow, rent or buy the horse. So the interpretive theme here is ‘find another “Righteous/Gospel Church (=horse)” in order to move on’, pointedly given the depicted spuriously lingering, wasteful, immobilized and stalling stance of ‘the Church’s formal leadership’. And as I discuss in this segment in my blog post on the Church’s Shaking, [which will revolve around the Full Truth of God’s Sabbath - i.e., Isa 58|Matt 25:31-46], the full revelation that was give to Ellen White on this issue of whether or not to leave the Church was all dependent on whether or not there was a clear and present/tangible need to do so. I objectively see that there has long been that need as the Church and its leadership is insistent on not using all of its various Institutional, Human, Financial and Technical resources to try to achieve Christ’ full Gospel Mandate, preferring instead to limit those resources to the mindset and policies of the capitalistic (or, at best “mixed economy”, -which is still predominantly capitalistic) world. So, as involved in your dream, if one want to move on here, they really have no choice but to “hitch another ride”....and actually know how to get to where they were going.

By the way...where is it exactly that you all were going??

So all this to say that, as I am interpretively seeing/understanding it, you there were indeed considering yourself to be either in the “right” and/or “righteous” (i.e., ‘best possible/known’) place. And being a passenger in any car inherently involves a level of deferential trusting the driver and/or other leading ones in the car, particularly if you actually have the means to travel alone to where you need to get to. And if you are riding along with that group because you do not have those independent means, which I am perceiving, indeed based on your real life account where you were, and that orderly, seeking/needing the approval/recommendation of hierarchal (conference) “superiors/leaders” in the SDA Church, is that you were actually here “needing” to hitch a ride with those others, and manifestly also involving that you yourself did not know how to get to where it is that you were headed to.

And to give a Biblical precedence that it is not evil to leave the Church when there is that tangible need. God was shown to Ezekiel, and Eschatological prophet, that He had gradually, officially left the Most Holy Place (Ezek 10:18), then, almost immediately, Temple precincts (Ezek 10:19); and then the city of Jerusalem (Ezek 11:22-23), leaving it to its decreed fate of utter destruction. And later on Jesus deliberately and perfectly followed that departing sequence (Matt 23:37-24:2) even ending up on that same Ezek 11:23 Eastern Mountain, the Mount of Olives, from where He then firmly pronounced the destruction of Jerusalem and prophetically set forth the new course which would follow. (Matt 24:3ff). Similarly, our “Church” should be wherever Jesus/God actually is (i.e., wherever His full Truths are practiced and upheld) and not to any man-made organization or building.

Eugene Shubert wrote:Although most convertibles are probably sports cars, this vehicle had the appearance of a presidential limousine

Interesting specification.... I did indeed think that a regular sedan could be instead be involved here, but certainly not a presidential limo. And what then immediately struck me here is that fully substantiates my perceived understanding that this car ride was representative of the 4 major entities which comprise the SDA Church, namely: Lay Members, Lay Workers, the Leadership, which, symbolically, actually could, and indeed should, here be “downgraded” to merely: the “Pastoral Leadership”, and oddly/strikingly enough, in regards to the horse, which is symbolic of the quite largely encompassing symbol of ‘the Church at Work (=Militant)’. The presidential limo here would be pointing to the Church’s administrative leadership led by its various (conference) presidents. And with this being the all-encapsulating symbol here, it is showing how dependent the entire Church is on Godly presidential leadership, which quite naturally is indeed the default dependent order of things. Yet with the “Pastoral Leadership” (=Pastor C) being depicted here as being the one responsible to get the Church to where it is supposed to go, but atrociously failing here, and though the Lay Membership is evidently the driver here, but still completely dependent on driving/destination information and guidance on the Pastoral Leadership, the main fault here is indeed on the Pastoral Leadership. Indeed you clearly did experience that in real life because from what you stated, it was because Pastor C failed in completing the recommendation communication that he had said he would dom and also as the reason given was that he himself now had objections to your view, and your bypassing dealing with other SDA leaders, namely scholars, which are actually themselves types of Pastors (~a ‘High Pastor’ just as in the Priest/High Priest relationship, and it is interesting to note that probably all current dedicated SDA Scholars start out their ministerial training by aiming to become a pastor but later dedicate themselves to the field of Scholarship/Teaching, (-that was my own university progression)), then the main failure in all this which brought this expedition of yours in the dream to a screeching halt, was squarely on these various levels of “Pastoral Leadership”. In fact, this sequitur and evidently interpretive understanding here perfectly corroborates my cause-effect view posted in this post which pointed out how greatly dependent the SDA Church is on “Pastors” in regards to “New Light”, particularly because of the, actually spurious and indeed quite dysfunction in practice, Local-to-General hierarchal way in which it considers “grass root” claims of New Light, including prophetic claims.

The symbol of a ‘convertible presidential limo’ itself naturally immediately struck me as the ones the U.S. used to have, prior to the JFK assassination. Indeed I do see this historical allusiveness as being quite contributive to a spiritual understanding here as the JFK incident marked, for obvious, reasons, the last time a convertible limo was used to drive the U.S. President around and this indeed radically marked off the end of an age of Domestic innocence in the United States (the 1941 Pearl Harbor attacks had marked off the loss of its International age of innocence). And I have seen (in an historical TV episode on the creation of the Police’s S.W.A.T. (Special Weapons and Tactics; =and not Swift Action Team) units, formal historico-sociological claims to the fact it was the JFK assassination, with its immediate suspicions of a Royal American Coup d’etat (i.e., by the CIA) which engender a rise in common (i.e., vs. criminal) American civilians, not trusting government and law enforcement authorities and arming themselves to resolve issues themselves. So, spiritually speaking here, with you being in such an “age of trust and innocence” presidential limo here, that indeed reflects how you then were deferentially trusting in the SDA Church leadership for guidance. But, as with you striking out in real life to establish your own ministry to teach what you were seeing were Biblical Truths, you have since lost that innocence and deferential trust in, at least the human elements of the Church, which actually, incontrovertibly, comes to include the entire physical Church itself.

Eugene Shubert wrote: on the outside while its dimensions and roominess in the back seemed more carlike. It was certainly more spacious than any luxury car that I have ever been in. Pertaining to cars, the word convertible in the World English Dictionary simply means “having a folding or removable roof.”

As you stress here, the notion that was evidently was key for you to get was that though this was a presidential limo, which itself is spacious, the “available” space in the vehicle was still small and cramped and thus most definitely not conducive to comfortably accommodate a horse...convertible or not. So I am seeing here that they notion being stressed was that the White Horse, despite also being implied (though you evidently didn’t actually/concretely see this to be case, did not have its place in that car. In others worlds, there was just no room for it (God’s Church Militant) within that system, which is the SDA’s present organizational system, yet in regards to how it is being wrongly utilized to limit the natural advancement of God’s Church Militant Work. As I said in the post, the best/natural/normative way would be for each person to mount a horse (cf. God’s ideal, Righteous Church Militant in Rev 19:11-14ff), if the horse had to, as depicted, be taken along in the ride, and not try to “stuff” the horse in the vehicle/pres. limo.

(And quite evidently you were not seeing the expected long spacing between the back seating in the inside of a limo but rather the close, no lounge-spacing, quarters of the typical non-stretch sedan.)

Eugene Shubert wrote:In the dream, I did consider how a horse could possibly be positioned in the backseat with me

From this online video (cf. here), which shows a bison being transported in a convertible car, you can see how completely illogical it is to try to fit a normative/large horse in a car. In fact a horse has a slightly larger (i.e., less stockier ) “layout” than a bison, both height-wise, and most pertinently here, length-wise, and so, takes up more room. Width-wise, the horse’s body is slimmer than the bison, and so it would only be fitting in this convertible’s typical sedan back seat space if it was positioned sideways, but with you sitting on one side, that manifestly could not be his position. And that probably contributed to why you then tried to figure out, but could not begin to do so, how this could be the case, i.e., since you were taking up at least one third of that back seat area’s with.

That all spiritually/interpretively means to me that the only possible way in which the horse (=the Church Militant) could be fitted in that back seat, would be if you (=the Church’s Lay Workers) were not there. But obviously that option was not exercised which means that a most indispensable element in that SDA Organization car pool was “the Lay/Volunteer Worker”, i.e., ‘the lay member who is so dedicated to the cause that he is willing to unpaidedly, thus sacrificially, engage in the Gospel work.’ (cf. this post)

And with the only other feasible configuration to carry the horse in the convertible car being, as the above video of the bison shows, the front passenger seat being removed and the horse taking up that space length wise, then either the (formal/paid) Pastoral Leadership would have to be left out or he would instead take the your place (that of the Lay Worker) and you would be left out, or the faceless driver (=(non-active) lay member) would be left out and you and the Pastor would be in the car. And that probably would be the best configuration and inclusion, i.e., the inconsequentially inactive lay member (hence their facelessness) was the one who should be dispensable here, but quite evidently, this was not the preferred case, indeed just as the Church does not mind, working-wise, inactive membership. Indeed it no longer surveys members during sabbath school to see what kind of work they are doing. And if the Jehovah Witnesses’ requirement for membership was applied to the SDA Church, where you had to be a person who is actively involved in Gospel work [let alone attending Church as SDA’s also don’t mind (see here], then the actual membership of the SDA Church would be at best a quarter of what it presently is. Perhaps even the SOP’s “1 in 20”. So all this speaks to me on how the Church reveres its present system of condone inactive Church membership comprised of people who at best merely return a faithful tithe and offering. That is all according to a capitalistic way of doing things. God’s ideal is that the whole congregation be functioning priests, even if in courses as David later organized the priesthood. Meaning members would work for some time, but then be fully involved in ministry, or would parallely all be involved in lay ministry as well as secular work if necessary as it the case for most lay Pastors/workers.

Notwithstanding, as being shown in your dream, the most prominent problem here (indeed over all other constituency in the Church), as it indeed is the case in the SDA Church, are Pastors (=Pastor C) who do not know for sure, nay, at least effectively, even at all, how to get where they are supposed to go, effectively/literally resulting in, at best, “the blind leading the blind”.

Eugene Shubert wrote:and I did want to investigate that but I could not turn to see how the horse could fit. I do know that I tried too hard to see how the horse was positioned because when I exerted a substantial effort to look and resolve the riddle, the scene momentarily changed to me being alone in the backseat of an ordinary VW bug with high-back bucket seats. I assume that was caused by me wanting to figure something out instead of humbly receiving whatever the Lord wanted to show me.

Your default reaction here is quite interesting here, as, in agreement with what I have been saying, you did realize that something was not right, or at least normal, here. That is why you were quite insistent on trying to find out... but God would not let you. It was neither nor the time nor the best circumstance for you because if you did, you will probably see as it is quite logical that a horse just cannot be crammed in that quarter seating space. In other words, God did not want you then to see that His True Church Militant just could not “fit” in those artificial parameters as set forth and practiced by the present SDA Church. While God was clearly preventing you to see this pivotal anomaly, He actually may or may not have been the one who was instead attracting your attention to the perfect whiteness of the seat. If that diversion was not God’s doing then that whiteness was a veneerly manufactured one, by the builders of that ‘SDA Organizational Car’ and thus it actually was nothing more than a “white-wash” (cf. the prophetically pertinent Ezek 13:14-16; Matt 23:27-28) which readily “dazzled” you. (A reform is indeed needed on this and as EGW states, that pointedly involves (whatever needed) reorganization.)

It is interesting that you were perceiving all of this as a “riddle” which I see as saying/being: “How does a horse actually fit in a quarter of a car??” Truthful/Realistic Answer: “It actually just does not.” Which would explain the fact that why you couldn’t and didn’t concretely see the horse. I.e., God was actually never in that long wayward Church mis-organization, i.e., as it is currently, and that for a long time, being practiced.

It is further interesting that you ‘when you exerted a substantial effort to try to “investigatively” “get to the bottom of” this quite manifest anomaly, you then saw yourself, effectively being “demoted” to riding alone in a VW bug. Quite obviously that is depicting substantial loss, and also completely immobility since, if you are alone in a car, yet in the back seat, then you cannot, at least safely, be driving it. So, hopefully -for your own sake, the car is not moving at all and thus you would not be making any progress. So God was trying to show you here that if you had figured out that He/His True Church Militant was not actually at all in that limo, you would indeed have sought another vehicle, yet you then would still be in the back seat and not driving, manifestly, by being in that “back seat” still not knowing how to get to where you are supposed to go, or even if you did then, not being able to, at least safely drive to get there. So at best, you would have been the proverbial, unreliable, “back seat” driver. This indeed all reflects the perils of both a lack of proper resources as well as technical/scholarly knowledge/know-how that a lay worker can face if the decide to “strike it alone” when they realize that God is gradually and the fully, as depicted in Ezekiel 9-11, not in the present wayward Organization of the Church.

Ministry wise, I came to experience the lack of resources peril when I decided, for various quite valid, tangible, right and integrity-related reason not to go ahead and get a formal, paid position in the SDA Church as a paid pastor or teacher, which I easily could have done by completing my Andrews University Undergraduate and then Seminary studies. There was no obstacle at all for me not to do so (particularly since I would be able to get Student loans), other than the fact that I new it would be useless since I saw that virtually everything that I would be learning would have to be restudied in much more depth. It thus would be a wasteful and terrible financial investment. And so I decided to instead straightly pursue these research education needs with the non-loan funding that I could get, which admittedly was not that much. But I thus managed to not suffer as much loss in the area of Biblical Scholarship and whatever I presently scholarly do not yet know, but have seen can be ascertained through further research (cf. this related plan, it either is not common, involved or existent knowledge in the SDA Church.

So, for your own peace of mind, as you remained within the Church proper and more than less worked according to it present organization, I see that God, (as He does many times as seen the Bible and SOP), let you assume what you did about this Divine hindrance here, and not what it quite manifestly, even, applied symbolism wise, evidently was: which is that God’s True Church Militant was actually not it that limo, however formal, official, dazzling it was as a vehicle (=organization)....In fact, with you specifying, as you do below, which is what I was actually thinking and hoping, as the beautiful horse in the corral being a white horse, then I am seeing here that this is where the white horse you were led to think was in that limo, but really was not, was all of this time, the horse which was in the corral.

(cont’d)

(cont’d)

NJK Project wrote:Apparently you were trusting that Pastor C knew best how to get you there, and that presumedly fast sports car would be much better than you riding that horse alone, even if you yourself knew how to get where you wanted to go.

Eugene Shubert wrote:Absolutely not. I was primarily just a spectator.

As I explained above, despite your, actually understandable, vehement opposition to that restatement of the case here, that was effectively what the case was here [minus, of course, now, the sports car notion to be, actually more significantly replaced with the presidential limo]. Indeed the self-evident fact is that, as you did not give the needed directions here then you, at the very least, did not know how to get to where you were supposed to go. And if you actually did, then that solidly confirms my perception here that you were choosing to trust Pastor C to get you there, indeed thus quite illogically saying nothing when he could not figure out the way and you all were stall for a long time there. You nonetheless actually put this best here when you describe yourself then as a “spectator” because that wholly implies a someone who is dependent on actually “actors/players” in a scene in order to see its development and end. It also dually involves that actor not being able or authorized to “take the lead” in that situation, which you indeed did not at all do in the dream, even when there was a great need for knowledgeable leadership to complete that started trip.

And with the dream actually ending without that trip resuming (=the prophesied end ot the present SDA Church Organization). Interestingly enough, if the SDA Church did the needed “reorganization” to do God’s Full Gospel Work it would physically be spared, but... thus far... it has decided not to do so.

NJK Project wrote:I am sure you can readily see here how this all relates with how you were trusting you Church leadership (represented by Pastor C)

Eugene Shubert wrote:If you could backup and read the biographical description of Pastor C, you would see that I didn’t regard him as being the least bit honorable.

Without also restating what I have said in response above, I actually had read your biographical account and it seemed clear to me that, at least, at first, you were deferentially trusting Pastor C, even if you never had a high view of him, with him being “cagey” and all. (Indeed many SDA pastor are variously only ‘selfishly/self-interestedly, : looking out for themselves” in their pastoral work and thus don’t do anything that won’t profit them or will require a sacrifice. (=Ezek 34's false shepherds)). My observational point here is the incontrovertible/inherent fact that you, at least, according to the mandated “new light”, order of things were trusting him, and then when you bypassed him, others similar “pastors”. With the dream showing you getting out of the car, which involves that you then taken and independent stroll (i.e., you independent work and ministry), you eventually did momentarily separated yourself from that stalled “SDA Organization” at least to pet that horse... yet evidently always intending to return to that limo. And you apparently were starting to do so, pointedly when you heard Pastor C taking nonsense and being vexatiously wrongful, when the horse-Mighty-angel-Godlike Being then tried to interpose himself from letting you do so and the dream ended before you did. So that all speaks ot me, indeed for the Secondary fulfilment which does not necessarily revolve around you as in your prior applicable “local and literal” understanding, but here more generally to anyone who would leave the present SDA organization seeing that God True Church Militant is not in that car, but presently stuck in a corral.

Eugene Shubert wrote:I think it’s obvious that the white horse in the backseat, the horse in the field with its feet obscured by grass, and the horse in the corral all refer to the gospel being immobilized because of church management. Although I had this dream ages ago (December 15, 1988), I still remember that the beautiful horse in the corral was white.

I missed that subtle difference that the horse in the tall grass where you were then merely seeing it from afar and then shifted to a corral where you were then petting it, thus close/closer up. As my symbolism of the “people obstructing” tall grass involves, this means that you and/or what you are representative of in the dream (i.e., dedicated Lay Workers) managed to, effectively, “look beyond the unruly obstructing crowd” and had been interestedly/fascinatedly approaching, perhaps/manifestly imperceptibly to you at the time, that White Horse (=God’s Actual/True Church Militant) imprisoned in a corral.

As I see it, which I think you also saw, all of those three White Horse are all one and the same one, though in those three settings it may casually appear to be distinct ones. And as you are saying the White color in inherently representative of the Gospel, as this involves Victory/Triumph (over evil), Purity and Righteousness, all characteristics of God True Church Militant who, as stated in the SOP fight under to blood stained white banner of Prince Emmanuel who’s blood actually whitens those who are cleansed by it (Rev 7:14; Dan 12:10; cf. Isa 1:18). When the Church is properly functioning it then tangibly is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And as an angel represents a message, then the Gospel message itself was shown to be incorporated in that Church (=Horse) as it later, next morphed into an angel...and then into a God-like/representative figure. This a morphing progression which is collectively showing that: that True Church Militant (=White Horse)-has the True Gospel Message, right from before the Throne of Heaven (=Mighty Angel) (cf. Rev 4:5b; 5:6) - and this its author indeed is Jesus/God the Son (=Divine presence behind the (Mighty) Angel).

The primary (=local and Literal) message of your dream is actually not at all affected by my secondary interpretation here, just what you are “limitingly” understanding it to be. Indeed it is God showing you, as you partly seemed to have already experienced, that His True Church is not limited to a physical or organization entity. And I said ‘limited” because, as seen in your interpretation of your dream, you have not advanced much, if anything at all, application-wise beyond the point in the dream right before you get out of the car.

That is it for now. Again I didn’t expect that the response would be that long.

Other Comment
In regards to your William Miller 2 claim, which I actually do see is a possible impression from God if you are called to do a similar work as he did, you then may want to considered it in the historical and spiritual context of the fact that Miller’s work served to help spear head the establishment of the Remnant Church, and also that He did not persist in doing it alone but accepted the collaboration of like minded workers. So I would see your calling contributively applying to the establishment of the Church Triumphant which will be composed of the 144,000. But, as per William Miller’s case, I would strongly caution you not to reject as He did, God True Sabbath message, which actually prevented him to join the True Remnant Church group and also understand, especially, the Third Angel’s message. He thus also did not recognize/accept the SOP as manifested in EGW. And as the SOP says, that is because he allowed his associates to prevent him from moving on in the advancing light of that message.

Some additional comments that came to mind:

In regards to your perceived “riddle” which I am seeing is asking: ‘How does a horse fit into a one quarter space (i.e., ½ to 2/3 of the back seat space (thus minus the space you are occupying)?’:

Attempt #1
Well the horse feet/hooves would have to be a bunched together, thus practically touching each other. And I have yet to see a real life horse, not even a stunt-trained horse, be capable of standing like that. I have seen dogs, cats and certain other four legged animals do that but not a horse for some reason. Only in fictional (i.e., unreal/unrealistic) depictions, e.g, cartoons, are horses occasionally shown capable of doing that. Probably for reasons of unmaintainable balance. It would just keep on tipping over. So since a horse wouldn’t be able to do that, either flipping over and crushing you or flipping over out of the car, then it cannot truly be fitting in that area. This is all in direct contrast to the first horse in the field which you saw/understood was standing squarely on its legs, though you could not see that because of the obstructing tall grass. And so this would be involving the “unruly/unbiblical people” trying to prevent you from seeing for sure that that second horse was indeed standing quite squarely. I.e., that Church Militant was itself well/firmly established in the field.

Attempt 2
Another potential possibility would be the for the horse in that car having either its hind legs or its front legs just hanging outside the car, thus most likely having half of its body hanging outside in mid air, not resting on anything. That might work in a covered car where the roof would prevent the rest of the horse’s body from flipping over, but there is not chance for that to work in an opentop convertible. And so that option also results in the horse not being able to fit in the car. So as I initially answered earlier for that riddle: ...“It just does not.” In fact such a half-in half-out attempt would be reflective of a Lukewarm (half hot half cold) Laodicean Church attempt. But as God states such a lukewarm condition will not stand.

Longituginal Fitting
Also, as seen in the ‘bison in a car’ video above, the windshield had to be removed to even fit that animal in a back seat and front seat manner. However, on top of someone having to be left out, as discussed above, that symbolically also results in the other great danger of riding in a car without a windshield. You then either have to dried very slowly, which actually may not help since, e.g., a pebble launched by a vehicle in front of you can easily kill you as it itself would be moving at high speeds.

Limo vs. Car Space
I am understanding that the Outside Limo view vs. inside car small spacing is representing the fact that their should be much more space inside the limo than what ended up being. In other, symbolic words, the Conference Organization of the SDA Church represented by the Presidential limo look from the outside, should be resulting in much more space inside the car. Indeed a horse could then be easily fitted inside the limo if that is what the space was also inside. It would infact be squarely in the middle of the limo, and there also would be much more free and additional seating space inside from many other people.