Hello again, Forum folks,

Please forgive me, in advance, for the length of this mail. This will be a one-time occurrence.

As I have outlined in these messages ( link to my 'intro' post , link to "The Ends of Time" discussion thread ) on this Forum, I found this web site looking for information concerning the book of Daniel, chapters 11 (and 12), for a Bible study that I’m presenting. Since that time, I have been studying, in depth, Eugene’s online book “The Ends of Time,” and have been truly blessed by the spiritual and theological challenges and insights presented in that work. I’ve read it through at least four times now.

I am truly grateful that God has led me to this Site.

Since I have been studying these matters, I have been led through many avenues into a study of Scripture unlike any I’ve had before. Scripture seems to be coming alive! Strangely, the ‘key’ has been to really seek to understand Scripture itself, in its context.

I wish to relate a dream that I had on June 8, 2004, while tent camping with my family in Wawona, California, in Yosemite National Park. I had the dream on the 3rd night of our vacation. I would like feedback from any that care to give it, asking that they prayerfully consider their response first. I will try to be as accurate as possible, and not embellish.

It may be well to summarize my experience and feelings that I had leading up to, and immediately before the dream, so that is where I’ll begin.

It is a very daunting task to begin a verse-by-verse study of Daniel and the Revelation, especially teaching it to folks unfamiliar with the Bible. As I began the studies, I looked forward to teaching Daniel 9-10 with a bit of ‘fear and trembling;’ but as I really studied the Biblical texts, and many reference works, I knew that with prayer and God’s guidance that it could go very well. Daniel 11 (and, to some degree, Daniel 12) were a different story altogether. Many years ago (1979) I attended the Pilot program for the first SDA ‘Daniel and Revelation Seminar,’ presented by two wonderful Christian gentlemen: Elders O.J. Mills and Dwight Taylor. I owe these men a huge debt of gratitude. It was completely unlike the seminars that ultimately evolved, in that the workload was significant. There were at least 22 nights, we met 3-4 times per week for a couple hours, and there was assigned a tremendous amount of reading homework—much of it being large portions of The Great Controversy, by E.G. White. It was a heady and wonderful time for me. I was not a SDA at the time, but this series was a driving force toward my becoming one. I relate this because it was the first of my studies that ran through ‘the whole’ of Daniel and the Revelation, but we touched on Daniel 11 (and 12) very slightly, if at all. This has been a common occurrence throughout my SDA experience, and in my studies of Daniel over a 25-year period.

Returning to my present Bible study: I began reading everything I could get my hands on concerning Daniel 11, I began asking every person that I had spiritual respect for to give me something I could get my mind around—I had to teach on it very soon! No one could come up with anything that they could recommend with confidence. I asked folks passing through that were presenting seminars. Nothing. I read the SDA Bible Commentary for Daniel 11 through, more than once. (To summarize the SDA BC on this chapter: the review begins just fine, but soon reaches a historical/interpretive ‘fork in the road.’ At the fork, there are two very different interpretations then presented, of which either may be correct. Prayerfully pick the one that seems correct to you! This is very unsatisfying.) I read C.M. Maxwell’s “God Cares, Volume 1” at least three times. His appraisal matches the commentary to a degree, but (my summary of his words) after discussing the theological ‘fork in the road,’ he suggests that we may one day learn the message of the remainder of the chapter through deep, prayerful study; and to his credit outlines some principles to keep in mind during study. I wholeheartedly agreed, and agree.

At this point, somewhat in desperation, I began to search the Web in earnest for a concise explanation or exegesis (I had looked prior to this time—to no avail). I found Dedication’s ( link to Ulrike's Daniel Index ) Canadian SDA-based web site, which certainly had the most in-depth historical SDA interpretation site on the Web, but there was so much data that it was staggering—and I had no idea how one could teach the material to neophytes. I found this Forum and Web site through a Google search, which plopped me into Eugene’s treatise on Daniel 11, and found what seemed to me at the time to be a revolutionary concept: that of “multiple scenarios” ( link to "Multiple Scenarios" discussion thread ) in prophecy. From that time on, I felt that I had received a wake-up call regarding my Biblical understanding, and even my study methods. The things that I studied therein began to grow more simple and true-to-Scripture by the moment. But, (and it’s a large BUT) there were certain details of this interpretation that were not in accordance with historical Adventism. By this time, I felt that I must become like Daniel himself in chapter 9, verse 3 and “set my face toward the Lord God to make request by prayer and supplications” (NKJV) concerning all these things. I was burning to find the truth of these matters. After much in-depth study, much prayer, and very circumspectly, I realized that I must present the thesis of multiple scenarios to my Bible study folks as a third possibility (including the two paths at the ‘fork in the road’) for interpreting Daniel 11, et al, that had some tremendous merits. I did not do this ‘lightly.’ I understood the magnitude of the concept’s implications.

At this time I left for Yosemite, and I was pleading daily (really hourly) for God to show me His will and truth on this matter. I was trying to understand all the theological ramifications of the things I had studied. I was conflicted and fairly overwhelmed, but hopeful.

Now in Yosemite, the evening of my dream began with a campfire; only my wife and stepson (I also have two stepdaughters that were already sleeping) were awake enough to join me for a time. After a while, my stepson and then my wife grew tired, and went to their tents to sleep. I remained at the fireside, thinking about my life, my Christian experience, my spiritual state, my studies in Daniel… I was feeling discouraged as I thought about these things. I prayed, and decided that I would read the chapter “The Lord’s Vineyard” in the book Christ’s Object Lessons, also by Ellen G. White (an outstanding essay.) Still feeling strangely ‘down ’ I prayed again, wondering why I was feeling that way when I was finally away from work and life’s pressures, and had a period of time to enjoy in one of my favorite places on earth. It didn’t make sense. Since I had prayed and studied for a while, the fire was burning down and it was getting quite late, I prayed that God would be merciful to me and give me an encouragement (I never prayed for an ‘encouragement’ before in my life.) I then went to the tent for sleep.

At about 5:20 AM, I awoke, profoundly impressed that I had had an important dream. Rather: an important Dream—not the average kind. My heart was pounding and my mind was buzzing. I lay and thought about the dream, going over it in my mind for quite some time. Since I was lying in a tent, without paper or pen, I wrestled with the thought: “does God want me to record this dream?” After about ten minutes of thinking I should get up and write it down, vs. sleeping and being comfortable, this thought came, almost audibly, into my mind: “write it down before you forget.” Until then I had been unsure if it was something worth recording—or if it was possibly something I ate . I didn’t want to take the chance that I would miss something that God wanted me to do, so I got up, accidentally waking my wife—“I had a dream… it seemed like a REAL dream… you know what kind I’m talking about… and I think God might want me to write it down, so I’m going to get a pen and something to write on. Go back to sleep; everything’s OK”. I went and searched through the car for a pen among the airplane luggage and camping gear, found one, grabbed my headlamp and an engagement calendar to write in, and returned to the tent. Hereafter is the dream.

As it began, I was driving on a beautiful, winding country road. There were magnificent green trees all along the way, and shafts of sunlight were permeating the greenery at intervals. It was exceedingly peaceful. I came to a street or long driveway intersecting upon my right, and pulled the car off the road to take a look. The road led quite a way to a rather large building that had an ominous feel to it. The building itself was not unusual—just a single-story, normal-looking office style. I often pulled over and looked at this building on my way home, just as I was then. There was just something about it that wasn’t quite right; at this time I can’t remember what set it apart from others. It seemed that there was an inordinate amount of security and secrecy there . I could never tell from my stops whether it was a government building or a research facility, but it certainly had that feel. My curiosity was natural; in the dream I was a newspaper reporter, perhaps an investigative journalist of some type. I pulled away, and continued to my home.

(I arrived home, to a house that I don’t recognize now or then, but I remember many details of it.)

After I arrived home, I received an unexpected phone call from a ‘whistle-blower’ from the institution that I had paused to look at. The person told me that he would come to my house later that evening with “undeniable proof” of a concealed, dangerous corporate or governmental cover-up: my suspicions were confirmed. He appeared at the house with a protective body suit, not unlike a suit for radiation or biohazard workers, and left it with me. The understanding that I had from the stranger’s visit was that if experts examined the suit, all mysteries regarding the strange activities at the plant would be blown wide open.

Later on that same day, I also received somehow—the knowledge from God, that He would speak a message to me that night, at 2:00 AM. Two (real-life) married friends of ours learned of this coming communication very late in the day (I or my wife may have called them—I’m not sure), and they immediately left their home to drive to our place. As these friends were enroute, and it was very late, I realized that another real-life friend of ours (Mat) was out front in the driveway playing basketball under the lights. He was playing with a friend of his that we did not know.

When our married friends arrived, the atmosphere was very solemn. We were trying to arrange a way to videotape the communication event, but it seemed that all we had was a VCR. It also seemed that we thought we could tape the event with just a VCR and no videotaping device. Odd. As the time grew near, I went outside by myself onto a sloping lawn, facing approximately east. This was on a different side of the house from the basketball hoop. At 2:00 AM exactly, I noticed that the sun began to rise in the east: a beautiful, peaceful, miraculous sunrise. I was thrilled to my soul. I felt as if the sun was warming me through to my heart. I yelled “Of course! The sun is rising at midnight!” as if it was a forgotten something that I remembered was supposed to happen just that way. But, even as I was yelling that out, I was a bit confused as to what I was shouting, since I distinctly knew that it was 2:00 AM, and the sun was definitely rising. It seemed that my mouth was speaking its own words, divorced from my mind’s thoughts.

About this time I realized that the others: my wife, our married friends, Mat and his friend, were now on the lawn behind me. Mat’s friend began to talk about some future sporting event that he was concerned about, but I turned toward them and yelled without thinking “don’t worry, we won’t be here by then!” As I cried out, I could feel myself ‘going into vision,’ (the only way I can describe it) and I began to see a horizontal cylinder just before me, maybe a foot long, made up of disks in sort of a laminated, horizontal stack-up. Each disk had numbers on it, and the series of numbers on the disks aligned to form a digital number. It reminded me of a large version of the workings of an older-style mechanical odometer in a car. I knew immediately as I saw it, that it was the day/date of Jesus’ coming. We were all terribly excited, but I couldn’t speak the number/date even though I could clearly see it. My mind couldn’t comprehend the clearly presented date in a way that I could voice it. It’s not like I felt God didn’t want me to say it—it’s that I was totally unable to make the sounds come out of my mouth.

At this point in the dream, I awoke. As I write this recollection, I am getting chills remembering the incredible reality of the dream. What I described as ‘going into vision’ was totally amazing, and really indescribable. Words absolutely fail. I can’t begin to imagine the experience of a true prophet in a waking vision!

One last point: about 1/3 of the way through my writing of the dream, in my tent, the pen (the ONLY pen we had) began to skip. I looked at it with my headlamp, and saw that there was virtually no gel ink left in it. I was incredulous. I began to pray that God would somehow ‘fill the pen’ with enough ink to at least record the dream. I even prayed that he would somehow perform a real, visible miracle and make the ink not go down in volume (I’m not joking—there was a layer of ink about .010-.020" thick in the reservoir). That would give me proof positive that God wanted me to record the dream! Alas, it was not to be. I felt like a knucklehead. I did keep praying and tapping the pen—sometimes violently—to get enough ink to the tip to finish the narrative. I had juuuuust enough: the last sentence is barely legible, and the last word is inscribed into the paper without any ink to speak of.

(UPDATE 06 October 2004 If you've read this far, thank you for your interest... I have added a posting below that I feel is important to the reader. To go there, please scroll down to the post named "An Impressive Dream Becomes Even More Impressive" or click this link. If you're pressed for time or your mental energy is fading fast, please read the section beginng with " ", and the next paragraph, entitled "Bob's story." Some brothers and sisters have been kind enough to add their comments and interpretations of the dream told in this post; they are well worth examining--don't skip over them!)

What are your thoughts, if any? Was it a strange gastric phenomenon, or a real message? I am especially interested in the views of those that have read Gene’s “The Ends of Time,” or those who have spiritual insight.

Sorry again for the length, but it is what it is.

Thanks, and God bless all,
Steve

Dear Steve,

God answered your prayer and encouraged you in a powerful way. It's reasonable that dreams of godly, spiritual encounters involving scenes of indescribable power, depicting incredible reality, are sufficient proof that the dreams are from God. I don't doubt that in this instance. However, I am left wondering what you think the dream means. I am happy to share my own personal perspective.

As it began, I was driving on a beautiful, winding country road. There were magnificent green trees all along the way, and shafts of sunlight were permeating the greenery at intervals. It was exceedingly peaceful. I came to a street or long driveway intersecting upon my right, and pulled the car off the road to take a look.

God approves of your journey to the kingdom but you're curious about an institution that's a long way off the highway.

a rather large building that had an ominous feel to it. ...There was just something about it that wasn’t quite right; ... It seemed that there was an inordinate amount of security and secrecy there.

The person told me that he would come to my house later that evening with “undeniable proof” of a concealed, dangerous corporate or governmental cover-up: my suspicions were confirmed. He appeared at the house with a protective body suit, not unlike a suit for radiation or biohazard workers, and left it with me. The understanding that I had from the stranger’s visit was that if experts examined the suit, all mysteries regarding the strange activities at the plant would be blown wide open.

I am confident that this refers to the governing body of the corporate SDA church. I know first hand that the Seventh-day Adventist church really is a manufacturing facility that manufactures dangerous doctrines, for which one needs a protective suit. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.

Dear Steve,

I was very encouraged by your dream. This is an email I wrote to my Adventist house Bible study group. I hope this will encourage you.

Greetings from Grace in Atlanta! I had been working here since April. I had been through some tough times, but where troubles abound, God's grace abounds even more.

Here I am writing to share with you a very important message, a dream of an Adventist brother posted on this web site:

http://everythingimportant.org/SDA/viewtopic.php?t=930

I read through Steve's testimony about his dream, I was very moved. I believe that it came from God. From his dream, I know that the coming of the Lord is near; and the glory of God and His gospel will shine with power in the darkest hours of the night, such as the present time, then the end will come. It is very solemn. So I thought I should share it with you, so you may prepare your hearts for the fulfillment of all these things.

Dear brothers and sisters, I pray that each one of you will earnestly seek God with your whole heart like this Christian brother, and be prepared for Christ's imminent coming--this is the spirit of true Adventism. Be on your guard; be careful of any false doctrines coming in from either within or outside of the church. Both the Scripture and Ellen White had prophesied about the danger of the apostasy of the church, so did this brother see in his dream. We should not put our trust in any organization, but only in Christ through the diligent study of Scripture and the communion with God in prayer. I challenge you to dedicate each day a certain time for private prayer.

Finally I would like to encourage you with Titus 2:11-14:

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." Titus 2:11-14 NIV.

May God bless you all!

Love in Christ,
Grace

Greetings and blessings to all the Forum folks,

I am incredibly excited and awed as I begin this post. God is moving and active at this very moment.

Firstly, I offer my heartfelt thanks to Eugene and Grace for their wonderful responses to my dream (post #1 of this thread), per my request for insight. Christian brothers and sisters are priceless.

Secondly, I'd like to add my insights and interpretive points concerning the dream, and to comment on what Eugene and Grace have given directly.

Thirdly, I had another incredible experience today concerning a dream of a fellow Seventh-day Adventist brother. It was mind-boggling!

Eugene stated in his response,

I am left wondering what you think the dream means.

With fear and trembling I offer what I understand of the dream thus far. It's amazing how simple and obvious things seem afterward, when someone else points them out! Specifically, I believe that Eugene's interpretation of the 'opening scene' of the dream is accurate. Looking at the dream in context of all my interactions with Eugene and my recent intense studies in prophecy, confirms that to me.

Here's an interpreted recap: The journey along the beautiful road is my journey to the Kingdom. My stopping along the highway to examine and wonder about the normal-looking institution, way off of the highway is me, observing the church's interpretations and teachings of scripture and doctrine; that is, as Eugene stated: "the governing body of the corporate SDA church." (Please note the bolded words for the specific and focused meaning intended here...) Things looked normal, but were not. I, personally, am the investigator and reporter: of the church's prophetic doctrines and the activities of the 'whistle-blower'. MY JOB HERE AND NOW ON THIS EARTH IS TO EXAMINE THESE THINGS (traditional SDA prophetic doctrines and interpretations, along with Eugene's 'Multiple Scenarios' theses), AND REPORT WHAT I LEARN TO THOSE WHOM WILL LISTEN, LEARN AND RE-TEST THEM FOR TRUTH. The 'whistle-blower' that I spoke to on the phone, and who also delivered the protective suit is Eugene, who is quite literally a whistle-blower regarding the actions of some SDAs in his former home church, but especially the denomination's doctrines regarding some very critical prophecies. I think it is particularly appropriate that the symbol for proof of a spiritual/doctrinal 'cover-up' is a physical protective cover for a person's body! The body suit itself is the study itself regarding multiple prophetic scenarios, especially Eugene's book "The Ends of Time." The understanding that I had concerning experts examining the suit and receiving "undeniable" proof of the cover-up, refers to the happenings in my life right now: I am dissipating the information to sober, God-fearing persons. I'm not sure what to make of the receiving of "the knowledge from God, that He would speak a message to me that night, at 2:00 AM." I do believe that it's important to note that God was very specific concerning the time, and that it would be late (in the day). I feel there's something else significant there--please help me out if you have insights. It could simply be the fact that we will be aware that God himself will communicate to His people as we approach the end of time... I believe the next section, concerning my family, friends and acquaintances' responses to the fact that God had made known His plan for communication with me/us, is symbolic of the state of the SDA church body (in the USA, at least). Some (symbolized by my married-couple friends), when they heard the plans of God, immediately and without question responded--even though it was very inconvenient. Some continued what they were doing (Mat), but were in reality very ready for the coming event. Others (the acquaintance) were very concerned with worldly events, and were very unconcerned about the deep things of God. I'm not sure that the VCR/recording scene is significant. It does seem strange that when we tried to figure out a way to record the actions of God, all we could do was bumble and fumble. God was true to His word, and exactly at 2:00 AM He began His communication with a sunrise. Grace has interpreted this as follows: "the glory of God and His gospel will shine with power in the darkest hours of the night, such as the present time, then the end will come." (Thank you VERY much, Grace.) It is quite possible that this is a perfect interpretation of the scene, but I think there is more still. I was, and still am, very convicted that the misalignment and/or misunderstanding of the time element (please see the dream write-up) is HIGHLY significant--but I can't interpret it yet! Please pray that God will smile upon us and give us light regarding this... When Mat's friend came up from the basketball area still concerned about sports, etc--not even noticing that the sun was rising in the middle of the night--I couldn't contain myself. I shouted that Jesus' coming was ABSOLUTELY IMMINENT, and was drawn away in vision (more about this later--absolutely stunning). These things are self-evident. My friend has interpreted the cylindrical object with the spinning numbers, which stopped at a specific date for Jesus’ coming--he is one of the people that we are studying prophecy with now (see my initial introductory post)! He said that it probably means, simply, that time has been continuing through history, and that there were times where Christ could have come, but that there is now a time set for the Second Coming. I'm not sure how to interpret my inability to speak the date, even though I was absolutely certain that I could see the date--for quite some time in the dream, even. It reminds me of Eugene's experience in his own dream-message from God where he couldn't get past the first line that the angel was speaking. (Gene--did you ever receive light concerning that??) The dream then ends. After I awoke, I believe the pen incident may be symbolic. It's quite possible that we, as a people, may not have much time and resources left to warn the world!

(UPDATE 06 October 2004 Restin Wells has supplied very valuable insight regarding the 'misalignment and/or misunderstanding of the time element' mentioned above, in this post, and I responded to her post here, prayerfully applying what she contributed.)

I need to report an extraordinary incident that happened just today, Sabbath. Last night, I met for the first time, my wife's uncle Bob: a SDA from Missouri. Today, we were scheduled to visit the ocean (they are here for a short vacation), but poor weather changed those plans. Instead, we had Sabbath dinner with them after they visited our church, and then my wife and I took a walk with he and his wife. (Coincidentally, we began a study of the book of Daniel for today's Sabbath school, which Bob and his wife also attended.) During that walk, we began talking about the study that we had of Daniel. Per my new job description of 'investigative reporter' (see above) I was thinking about mentioning some of my recent Biblical and prophetic adventures. The conversation was going very well, and I decided that I would be frank about my convictions and understandings of late. Bob and his wife received them very well. I outlined, very simply, the Biblical points in the past where Christ indeed could have come, and gave the basic thesis of multiple prophetic scenarios. I told them about my dream, and how it related to this topic, in very broad strokes. I ended my description of the dream by saying that "I saw the date of Jesus' coming--but I couldn't get the words of the date out of my mouth." (Or something very close to that--but that's all the description I gave.) Bob stopped me in mid-sentence, and said "I've got something I need to tell you." What I will now relate is spine tingling to me...

Bob's story: In 1966, Bob was in the U.S. military, stationed near Yokahama, Japan. He was 22 years old at that time, and was very recently baptized into the Seventh-day Adventist church, converting from the Moravian church--where his dad was (or had been) a pastor. About the time of his baptism He was studying the Bible's Daniel and the Revelation very intently, and also the books: Daniel and the Revelation by Uriah Smith, and The Great Controversy by E.G. White. At this time he had a dream. He had a friend also in the military that was a SDA. Here is his dream, as best he can remember it (38 years ago and he still remembers!): As it began, he was standing on a high place. It was flat, and he was standing in the center of a circularly arranged grouping of tall pillars. Standing at his right side, there was a tall angel, who directed his attention to an object just in front of him. There, just before him, he saw a cylindrical horizontal object, maybe a foot long, with spinning numbers. (At about this time I began flipping out, but didn't let on why...) He watched the numbers spinning by, and described it as "time was passing by with the numbers" as he watched. Then the numbers stopped spinning, displaying a number--I don't believe that he knew with certainty that it was a date. He believes that the angel then said: "There is a determined time..." He then turned slightly toward the angel and distinctly remembers asking him "Is there a determined time for everything?" At this point, he awoke. I interviewed Bob at some length about the object that he saw--its size, description, location--everything. It was exactly the same object that I saw in my dream. The angel even interpreted it for him!!! He gave me sufficient description of the object and its location, form, action, etc before I told him about my dream's details. There was absolutely no way for him to fabricate the story, but, even then, I stopped him and asked his wife if he had told her the story before. She said that he had, many years ago. The only other person he told about the dream was his friend in the military. Bob said that his friend seemed to be quite alarmed by it, and believed it very significant--but Bob said he didn't understand it at all, and never has thought much about it since--until now! I was, and am, absolutely stunned and overwhelmed. Praise the living God!

I can say with verity: God is very active, right now. It's time God's people everywhere, inside and outside of all denominations, to awaken and move with Him!

Grace: I found your post very encouraging and uplifting--if even one person finds hope and blessing through my telling of the dream, it's worth the effort. Eugene: your work and words always open my eyes! God bless you both, very truly.

I will hopefully update the interpretation of my dream over time, and still am soliciting your gracious input!

God bless all--
Steve

Steve Starman wrote:As it began, I was driving on a beautiful, winding country road. There were magnificent green trees all along the way, and shafts of sunlight were permeating the greenery at intervals. It was exceedingly peaceful. I came to a street or long driveway intersecting upon my right, and pulled the car off the road to take a look. The road led quite a way to a rather large building that had an ominous feel to it. ... There was just something about it that wasn’t quite right;... It seemed that there was an inordinate amount of security and secrecy there . I could never tell from my stops whether it was a government building or a research facility, but it certainly had that feel. My curiosity was natural; in the dream I was a newspaper reporter, perhaps an investigative journalist of some type. I pulled away, and continued to my home.

After I arrived home, I received an unexpected phone call from a ‘whistle-blower’ from the institution that I had paused to look at. The person told me that he would come to my house later that evening with “undeniable proof” of a concealed, dangerous corporate or governmental cover-up: my suspicions were confirmed. He appeared at the house with a protective body suit, not unlike a suit for radiation or biohazard workers, and left it with me. The understanding that I had from the stranger’s visit was that if experts examined the suit, all mysteries regarding the strange activities at the plant would be blown wide open.

Steve, I've been aware of this concealed, dangerous, corporate, governmental cover-up for many years. When I first read this part of your dream, I kept marveling at its stunning accuracy and think it's an absolutely perfect representation of the Laodicean Seventh-day Adventist church.

The interpretive principle is a no-brainer. The fundamental conflict between an unscrupulous, man-centered institution and the responsibilities of a whistleblower is that all unethical, profit-driven corporations care more about revenue, secrecy and evading responsibility than they care about individual safety, honesty and integrity.

What should an Adventist whistleblower do? The strange activities that I seek to expose and wish were blown wide open, is the hierarchy's inordinate security and use of force to sustain their unchristian policy of complicity with A. Graham Maxwell, that he be permitted to seduce, in the church, innocent souls by the doctrines of demons, whereas any watchman/whistleblower who seeks to awaken a slumbering church to a straightforward, inspired interpretation of the prophesied omega of deadly heresies is to be slandered, fiercely persecuted and summarily cast out of the church, followed by lawsuits and cunning criminal prosecution, no questions asked. [1]

Since no one has said this yet, the dream parallels a section in Great Controversy where it describes the final deliverance of The Remnant. This is just after the death decree and the wicked are closing in on the sealed children of God. It is at night, and ominous clouds and thunder and lightning come over the earth. and God causes a light to pierce through the darkness, stopping the would be slayers of his people. The blackness is rolled back, and God displays the tablets of the Ten Commandments. Then He announces the time and date of his return for the saved. I can't say exactly which page in Great Controversy, as mine is stashed somewhere under piles of stuff from the multiple hurricanes here in FL. But it's in the last chapter, I think.
I agree that the SDA church needs to wake up. People are consciously drowning their recent anxieties in sports, which are deliberately designed to be like mesmerizing soap-opera dramas, by the advertizing psychologists.

Hello Restin,

Your response to my dream is truly appreciated! Your memory served you very well.

You have jogged my memory, and I believe you are really onto something. I remembered the section in The Great Controversy that speaks of the voice of God "declaring the day and hour of Jesus' coming" (G.C. 640), just before the cloud of His return appears (this is what Ross referred to...) I had forgotten this detail which you refer to.

On page 636, Ellen White describes the first audible announcement that God makes to His people, just before His return. He begins with the words "Look up;" they then "behold the bow of promise," and "see the glory of God and the Son of man seated upon His throne." She continues later on the page: "It is at midnight that God manifests His power for the deliverance of His people. The sun appears, shining in its strength. Signs and wonders follow in quick succession. The wicked look with terror and amazement onto the scene, while the righteous behold with solemn joy the tokens of their deliverance." Very shortly after this, the voice of God is heard once again, saying "It is done." This is the Voice that shakes the earth in the most violent earthquake of all time.

Those familiar with Eugene's work "The Ends of Time" will realize that he has made a compelling case that the book of Revelation outlines three scenarios of prophecy [1] [2] [3] [4]. These are broken down thusly: the possible first century coming of Christ (Rev. 6); the possible coming of Christ shortly after the beginning of the Advent movement, in the late 1800s (Rev. 7-11); and the soon, but future coming of Christ (Rev. 12-16).

If the second prophetic cycle refers to the Advent movement (and I am persuaded that it does), this is another assurance that the Advent people were correct in their understanding that the return of Christ was imminent. Ellen White stated in her lifetime "When the final warning shall be given, it will arrest the attention of these leading men through whom the Lord is now working, and some of them will accept it, and will stand with the people of God through the time of trouble." (G.C 611, emphasis mine.) There are very, very few Adventists that don't believe that the Lord could have come circa 1888--if His people were surrendered to Him.

So, here we are, in an almost totally lukewarm Church, with so many wondering what God is waiting for.

In this response to Eugene and Grace, I stated:

I was, and still am, very convicted that the misalignment and/or misunderstanding of the time element (please see the dream write-up) is HIGHLY significant--but I can't interpret it yet! Please pray that God will smile upon us and give us light regarding this...

Restin, I believe you've uncovered this missing piece--thanks to God! Hear me out: when we study eschatological and apocalyptic prophecy, either Biblical or from Ellen White, we see them written as special prophecies that are non-conditional. This is the standard exegetical stance of the SDA Church. Therefore, we interpret nearly everything in the book of Revelation as parallel events.

Ellen White, herself, stated: "It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional." (Evangelism 695) Ironically, this is quoted in our current SDA Sabbath School Quarterly on the book of Daniel. I see no 'limiting statements' here; no 'excepts' or 'buts,' even. If Eugene's thesis is true, then the following interpretation is reasonable. Each of the cycles of judgment in the book of Revelation has failed so far: in Jesus' time the church failed--the reasons are given in Christ's letters to the seven churches. In ~1888, the church failed for reasons that we all know well: the SDA Church failed to accept righteousness by faith in its truth and purity. The dream clearly shows my utter confusion at what I was saying versus what I was seeing--that is, Christ's coming was delayed (symbolically, from midnight to 2 AM; and in reality, from ~1888 to the near future), but I still understood that His coming was at midnight: that 'midnight' of the "midnight cry" that "was given" "in the summer and autumn of 1844" (G.C pp 398, 426 & 427, emphasis mine). I see here the impetus from God to update our theology and eschatology to espouse the conditionality of prophecy in all its phases. We have moved on from the time of the Millerites and early Adventists to the time of the creation of the "image of the beast" of Rev. 13. The third cycle of prophecy in Revelation does not end in the non-appearance of Christ, as does Rev. 6 (the seven seals) and Rev. 7-11 (centered on the seven trumpets): it (finally) ends with the return of the True King. If we continue to see these end-time prophetic books as having parallel descriptions of dissimilar events, we will remain mired in confusion. Seeing prophecy as conditional and dynamic, based upon the actions or inactions of God's people, puts US ALL on a very hot seat. We can no longer sit on our couches thinking, "Where is the promise of His coming? for, since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." 2 Pet. 3:4, KJV. I know that this text applies to the 'scoffers' at the end of time, but I just don't see excitement within the Church that Christ is coming--it is hardly mentioned any more. Can it be that our lack of prophetic understanding has led us into a lethargy wherein we ask the question of those scoffers? "Since the Advent fathers fell asleep, we have no idea why Christ has not come. Our minds grow dull and our hearts are heavy. We are bored. The Bible bores us too--it's too big and hard to understand. But, I know that He will come... Some day..."

Of course, what IS true is that the Bible is incredibly exciting: just read it as a child would, without reading into it or taking away from it. Understand it from the perspective of the receivers of the Word to whom it was addressed. Seek to understand their time and ways. Seek above all the Holy Spirit, and He will wake you from slumber (if you are sleeping) and fill your mind with the wonders of Scripture. THEN, you are ready to open the books of man that comment on Scripture.

I repeat: the coming of our Savior is imminent.

BTW, I'm sorry for all the amazing difficulties of the summer, for you folks in Florida. Just an amazing weather pattern... That was also an insightful comment on sports!

God bless, and once again--thanks.
Steve

Steve, this may surprise you but I believe in revelation that is beyond grammatical-historical exegesis. [2]. Understanding a communication in a plain and straightforward sense is merely the most obvious and most logical place to begin. Far ahead of what's simple there are secrets that only the wise can discern. I believe in your dream and the dream of your wife's Uncle Bob.

Here's yet another inspired dream/vision that confirms the revelation of multiple scenarios. This will probably amaze you. I certainly believe it's spectacular. Did you know that it was revealed to Ellen White that the remnant will be encouraging one another with the facts about conditionality and three Scripture-based scenarios?

A company was presented before me ... waiting and watching. Their eyes were directed heavenward, and the words of their Master were upon their lips: "What I say unto you I say unto all, Watch." "Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the Master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping." The Lord intimates a delay before the morning finally dawns. But He would not have them give way to weariness, nor relax their earnest watchfulness, because the morning does not open upon them as soon as they expected. The waiting ones were represented to me as looking upward. They were encouraging one another by repeating these words: "The first and second watches are past. We are in the third watch, waiting and watching for the Master's return. There remains but a little period of watching now." I saw some becoming weary; their eyes were directed downward, and they were engrossed with earthly things, and were unfaithful in watching. They were saying: "In the first watch we expected our Master, but were disappointed. We thought surely He would come in the second watch, but that passed, and He came not. We may be again disappointed. We need not be so particular. He may not come in the following watch. We are in the third watch, and now we think it best to lay up our treasure on the earth, that we may be secure against want." Ellen G. White, Testimonies for the Church Volume 2, p. 192.

I saw that watch after watch was in the past. Ibid. p. 193.

A footnote in my NASB Bible for Luke 12:38 says that the second watch is from 9 p.m. to midnight and that the third watch is from midnight to 3 a.m. [So a 2 a.m. Second Coming would place the Lord's return squarely in the third watch].

wow this is very exciting news!
everytime i hear of visions from God that are from credible sources i get filled with excitement that christ is comming soon.

when i read that you saw the date of the return of christ i wanted to know so bad but that is not for me to know.
keep us updated on what you find out!

Steve Starman wrote:The dream clearly shows my utter confusion at what I was saying versus what I was seeing--that is, Christ's coming was delayed (symbolically, from midnight to 2 AM; and in reality, from ~1888 to the near future), but I still understood that His coming was at midnight: that 'midnight' of the "midnight cry" that "was given" "in the summer and autumn of 1844" (G.C pp 398, 426 & 427, emphasis mine).

Steve,

I agree that the 2 A.M. time represents a significant delay and highlights the importance of conditional prophecy. Why are you so confident that 2 A.M. is only symbolic? How do you know that it's not an update?

If, as you alluded, the prophecy in Ellen White's Great Controversy page 610-611 needs to be updated, why not page 636 also? What do you think of this revision for GC 636? "It is at 2 hours past local midnight that God manifests His power for the deliverance of His people."

Back in the 1950's when I was attending the SDA school, Forest Lake Academy, we were often told of how Jesus was coming soon, maybe even next year. Yet, on reading Daniel and The Revelation, it only seems just now that all those prophecies about America, The Beast, and The Papacy, are developed to the point where final events can really happen any time now. back in the '50's you would never see the pope and the American president sitting for a photoshoot together. America was looking to science to save the world. You couldn't even have a religious article of any kind in a major publication like "Reader's Digest".
Everything has changed now, and the world is finally looking ripe for the final moves. So, I'm wondering how this fits in with the parallel possibilities that Jesus could have come back in 1844, or at the turn of the century, or some other time. Would Chapter 11 of Daniel, or last chapters of Great Controversy, just be canceled by God, or something? The movements of The Papacy and of America, as Sister White describes them in the very final events, just wouldn't happen??
In 1844 it was only a few years past the Lewis and Clark Expedition, and the cowboys and Indians were fighting each other in the west. The Transcontinental Railroad was only being constructed after the Indian wars in the late 1860's! I'm hard put to see how America could make any alliance with The Vatican back then to force all the world to worship the Beast and receive the Mark. So, what do you think of this?

Steve Starman wrote:Those familiar with Eugene's work "The Ends of Time" will realize that he has made a compelling case that the book of Revelation outlines three scenarios of prophecy [1] [2] [3] [4]. These are broken down thusly: the possible first century coming of Christ (Rev. 6); the possible coming of Christ shortly after the beginning of the Advent movement, in the late 1800s (Rev. 7-11); and the soon, but future coming of Christ (Rev. 12-16).

Steve, I have never applied the second scenario to the late 1800s. Midnight was the summer and autumn of 1844 and it would be a great stretch to extend the second watch far beyond that time. In all my writings, I have always applied the second watch/scenario to the completion of the 2300 years. [*]. Even Ellen White wrote about 1844 in a way that suggests that it was an especially favorable and opportune time to bring about the end of the world.

The history of ancient Israel is a striking illustration of the past experience of the Adventist body. God led His people in the advent movement, even as He led the children of Israel from Egypt. In the great disappointment their faith was tested as was that of the Hebrews at the Red Sea. Had they still trusted to the guiding hand that had been with them in their past experience, they would have seen the salvation of God. If all who had labored unitedly in the work in 1844, had received the third angel's message and proclaimed it in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts. A flood of light would have been shed upon the world. Years ago the inhabitants of the earth would have been warned, the closing work completed, and Christ would have come for the redemption of His people. — Ellen G. White, The Great Controversy pp. 457-458.

William Miller's dream is true and I expect William Miller to be vindicated. He was right in his core teachings. The proof is just a matter of deep understanding. It can be shown that Daniel 8:14 is eschatological and points to the end of the world after a 2300 year period.

All this about the possibility of the Second Coming at several times in history remind me strongly of reading E.G. White's "Testimonies for the Church". "Testimonies" can be very disheartening if you don't understand what she's really saying. Over and over, E.G. White brings up certain individuals in her church and expounds to great length and personal detail how if only that person had done this, or not done that, their lives would not be such a mess, or he/she would not have messed up someone else's life. But this is to say what could have been, from God's point of view. It doesn't figure in how people are going to fail anyway because of temptation, sloth, and misjudgment.

If anything, it shows how much in need we are of God's provision of grace and forgiveness, and His forebearance, as we stumble through life. I would get so guilty and scared, i'd have to quit reading, for I could see God's disapprroval of almost everything i ever did, or probably ever would do.

Yes, if everyone had done right, Jesus would have come, But He knew they wern't; so, here we still are. God apparently didn't go to great effort to contradict John when he thought the second coming would be in the Roman times. And Jesus saw fit to record only one sentence of rebuff when the disciples thought He came to defeat the Roman rule in their day. Maybe God doesn't want to discourage people and cause them to delay their sanctification. So He just lets all people believe that the second coming will be in their lifespan.

But His foreknowing isn't His fore-ordaining.

Nomark wrote:Would Chapter 11 of Daniel, or last chapters of Great Controversy, just be canceled by God, or something? The movements of The Papacy and of America, as Sister White describes them in the very final events, just wouldn't happen?

Exactly! Recall the first scenario (Mt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21). Jesus said, "Behold, I have told you everything in advance" (Mk 13:23). No mention is made of the mark of the beast, the seven last plagues, or Armageddon. God didn't need the development of a papacy for the completion of history. Please consider the many Scriptures that point to a possible end of the world in the first century. [3].

May I suggest to you that you don't understand Daniel 11? I am confident that there's nothing in the book of Daniel about any little horn or power recovering from a fatal wound. As I see it, the third scenario in Revelation extends the time of the papacy. Perhaps you should read my thesis? [4].

In Revelation:
The white horse of the first seal, the two ascending witnesses and the three angels' messages of Revelation 14 are all exquisitely great and glorious gospel proclamations in three climactic epochs of world history. The white horse and rider, going forth conquering and to conquer, is the apostolic church and gospel. The two ascending witnesses is the gospel attending the startling resurrection of the Old and New Testaments (circa 1800-1844). The gospel of the three angels is given here: [5][6].

Sorry Steve, the two ascending witnesses are not the messages of brothers Jones and Waggoner!

Interesting subject--

Steve wrote:

--I began to search the Web in earnest for a concise explanation or exegesis--
Web might not be the best place to search? However, you also searched elsewhere-- that is good.

I found this Forum and Web site through a Google search, which plopped me into Eugene’s treatise on Daniel 11, and found what seemed to me at the time to be a revolutionary concept....But, (and it’s a large BUT) there were certain details of this interpretation that were not in accordance with historical Adventism.--
Yes, the interpretation is not in accordance with historical Adventism. Keep that thought in mind.

---I was pleading daily (really hourly) for God to show me His will ---
Good thing to do! And I believe God answered your prayer.

---I had had an important dream---

OK, I wonder if the webmaster will allow for a different interpretation to the dream than the ones previously given on this forum???

---I was driving on a beautiful, winding country road. There were magnificent green trees all along the way, and shafts of sunlight were permeating the greenery at intervals. It was exceedingly peaceful.---

Notice that the road you were ON, was the one with magnificent green trees and sunlight.
It appears YOU WERE in the SDA church, you believed the HISTORIC doctrines of the church and they were filled with "light" and good!

---I came to a street or long driveway intersecting upon my right, and pulled the car off the road to take a look. The road led quite a way to a rather large building that had an ominous feel to it. The building itself was not unusual—just a single-story, normal-looking office style. I often pulled over and looked at this building on my way home, just as I was then. There was just something about it that wasn’t quite right;----

O.K you were on the Adventist road and came across another intersecting road, you pulled off the your road to look at an ALTERNATIVE philosophy!
Now remember you're FIRST impression when coming across the "many senerio interpretation"
"But, (and it’s a large BUT) there were certain details of this interpretation that were not in accordance with historical Adventism."

Ahh, you were driving down "Adventist Lane" and found a different road-- and you were at first haunted that it was NOT in accordance with basic Adventist prophetic teaching.


---It seemed that there was an inordinate amount of security and secrecy there ---

Watch what happens to this post. I can almost quarantee that it will end up in one of the "lower" levels on this forum, if it is allowed to stay at all. Remember it was originally posted in the "High Ranking Revelation" thread in answer to your questions about your dream.


---After I arrived home, I received an unexpected phone call from a ‘whistle-blower’ from the institution that I had paused to look at. The person told me that he would come to my house later that evening with “undeniable proof” of a concealed, dangerous corporate or governmental cover-up---

The person from that "off the road" institution would come to you and tell you the church --the Seventy-day Adventist church-- you were in was bad, and would convince you.

------He appeared at the house with a protective body suit, not unlike a suit for radiation or biohazard workers, and left it with me. The understanding that I had from the stranger’s visit was that if experts examined the suit, all mysteries regarding the strange activities at the plant would be blown wide open.----

Now remember this "whistle blower" CAME FROM the "off the road institute", he did NOT come from the "road" upon which you were traveling.
The dream mentioned that if you really examined his "suit" the mysteries of the "off the road" plant would be blown wide open.


I noticed that the sun began to rise in the east: a beautiful, peaceful, miraculous sunrise. I was thrilled to my soul..The sun is rising at midnight!” as if it was a forgotten something that I remembered was supposed to happen just that way. But, even as I was yelling that out, I was a bit confused as to what I was shouting, since I distinctly knew that it was 2:00 AM, and the sun was definitely rising. It seemed that my mouth was speaking its own words, divorced from my mind’s thoughts.

The multiple scenerio concept seemed very sweet to you. Yet in your heart YOU KNOW something is wrong. It doesn't add up.

---It reminded me of a large version of the workings of an older-style mechanical odometer in a car. I knew immediately as I saw it, that it was the day/date of Jesus’ coming.---
The day and the hour is set, my friend.
The prophecies cannot be swept under the table as "well those were plan A" or plan B and next plan C.
The prophecies are one coherant prophecy leading forward TO THE SET DAY OF THE LORD'S COMING.


Bob's confirmation:

---He was studying the Bible's Daniel and the Revelation very intently, and also the books: Daniel and the Revelation by Uriah Smith, and The Great Controversy by E.G. White----
He too, was on the ROAD, of Adventism.


---As it began, he was standing on a high place. It was flat, and he was standing in the center of a circularly arranged grouping of tall pillars. Standing at his right side, there was a tall angel, who directed his attention to an object just in front of him. There, just before him, he saw a cylindrical horizontal object, maybe a foot long, with spinning numbers. (At about this time I began flipping out, but didn't let on why...) He watched the numbers spinning by, and described it as "time was passing by with the numbers" as he watched. Then the numbers stopped spinning, displaying a number--I don't believe that he knew with certainty that it was a date. He believes that the angel then said: "There is a determined time..."


Yes, there is A DETERMINED TIME--

To me it is so plain that God sent these dreams to warn you to stay on the road of Adventist endtime interpretation and not go off the road after something new and different.

There is A DETERMINIED TIME
and prophecy all points TO THAT TIME.

The "alternate senerios" tend to undermine prophecies that are important to understand as they pretain to us and to the undergirding of the doctrines which we believe.